Loot boxes: Lords call for 'immediate' gambling regulation

Comments

  • RadioShaq
    20260 posts Moderator
    The governments have tried to regulate Pokémon cards before. After this gains more traction they will probably revisit it. They will also start going after online voice chat and violence in games and other restrictions I would imagine.
  • BuZuS
    1530 posts Play-Off Hero
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    Gambling doesn't have to be just for money.
    Which I didn't say. It's just the purest form.
    Panini packs are different they contain stickers you can trade with your friends, also you can purchase any individual sticker of your choice to complete your collection.
    Uh... what's the difference then? It's literally the same thing.
    Magic card packs have guarenteed minimum content in the numbers of uncommons, commons, rares etc that are in the pack. Also there is a thriving secondary market where you can buy and sell single cards.
    So literally the same as FIFA packs? OK.
    These cards also don't expire after a year and can actually go up in value when they are no longer available in packs.
    So it's actually more of a gamble since you can gamble on pack availability? OK.
    So both as you can see both are different from Fifas virtual loot box casino
    They seem to be the same, if not worse from what you said. So yeah.
  • Stone_cold_tea93
    3647 posts National Call-Up
    Dont understand where all the excitement is coming from. Its only in the U.K this is going to happen. Fifa is a game played all over the world.

    They didnt change the FUT model when Belgium banned points and they wont if the U.K ban points.

    We'll get the Belgium treatment.
  • phep
    2015 posts Fans' Favourite
    BuZuS wrote: »
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    Gambling doesn't have to be just for money.
    Which I didn't say. It's just the purest form.
    Panini packs are different they contain stickers you can trade with your friends, also you can purchase any individual sticker of your choice to complete your collection.
    Uh... what's the difference then? It's literally the same thing.
    Magic card packs have guarenteed minimum content in the numbers of uncommons, commons, rares etc that are in the pack. Also there is a thriving secondary market where you can buy and sell single cards.
    So literally the same as FIFA packs? OK.
    These cards also don't expire after a year and can actually go up in value when they are no longer available in packs.
    So it's actually more of a gamble since you can gamble on pack availability? OK.
    So both as you can see both are different from Fifas virtual loot box casino
    They seem to be the same, if not worse from what you said. So yeah.

    Actually, not really. When you buy a panini sticker, you own a physical item which you could trade or sell for real money, other stickers, or any other item someone is willing to trade. A FIFA card can literally only be traded for coins in the FIFA economy, and trading that for anything of real value is explicitly banned by EA. Also, EA will almost certainly ensure even the “virtual” value of the item will decrease over time, as they release better versions later in the cycle. Then, once the game cycle is over, the item becomes literally worthless.

    Regarding what will happen next, I would imagine one of three scenarios:
    1) UK gets the Belgium treatment where nothing changes except you can’t buy packs with FIFA points
    2) EA introduce some age verification system where you need to input some form of ID number to verify your age
    3) EA introduce some form of paid season pass model, in addition to maintaining the FIFA point model in other countries.

    I can’t see them walking away from FIFA points until they are banned everywhere. It’s simply too lucrative, but with these laws getting more common, they’ll want to monetise in these regions (especially the UK which is a key market for them).

    Of course, all of this is contingent on the government actually listening to the recommendations of the lords and implementing the changes required.
  • Orison
    74663 posts Icon
    Lel, some people think this would be the end of fifa points.

    They would just do a season pass and fp on top of it except for Belgium and the UK. Then we would have UK people complain how far they are behind with their wannabe road to glory :D
  • Idek
    17630 posts World Class
    It should be a set price at launch and supported by the developer throughout the run of the game.

    Why would they put extra money into supporting the game throughout the year if they are getting zero extra income once people have already bought the game
  • BuZuS
    1530 posts Play-Off Hero
    phep wrote: »
    Actually, not really. When you buy a panini sticker, you own a physical item which you could trade or sell for real money, other stickers, or any other item someone is willing to trade. A FIFA card can literally only be traded for coins in the FIFA economy, and trading that for anything of real value is explicitly banned by EA. Also, EA will almost certainly ensure even the “virtual” value of the item will decrease over time, as they release better versions later in the cycle. Then, once the game cycle is over, the item becomes literally worthless.
    That would mean Panini stickers are more clear gambling than FIFA packs, right?
  • Denz
    3183 posts National Call-Up
    Fortunately the unelected and largely lazy money grabbing Lords have little power or say on such things.

    FUT without fp will be as PTW as you could get.

    Amend the fp system sure, make odds far far more clearer and try to educate parents sure.
  • CosmicFuzz
    839 posts Semi-Pro
    BuZuS wrote: »
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    Gambling doesn't have to be just for money.
    Which I didn't say. It's just the purest form.
    Panini packs are different they contain stickers you can trade with your friends, also you can purchase any individual sticker of your choice to complete your collection.
    Uh... what's the difference then? It's literally the same thing.
    Magic card packs have guarenteed minimum content in the numbers of uncommons, commons, rares etc that are in the pack. Also there is a thriving secondary market where you can buy and sell single cards.
    So literally the same as FIFA packs? OK.
    These cards also don't expire after a year and can actually go up in value when they are no longer available in packs.
    So it's actually more of a gamble since you can gamble on pack availability? OK.
    So both as you can see both are different from Fifas virtual loot box casino
    They seem to be the same, if not worse from what you said. So yeah.

    You can't help yourself can you lol
    I think it's time to put you on ignore. All you can do is troll and try and bait for a reaction.
  • phep
    2015 posts Fans' Favourite
    BuZuS wrote: »
    phep wrote: »
    Actually, not really. When you buy a panini sticker, you own a physical item which you could trade or sell for real money, other stickers, or any other item someone is willing to trade. A FIFA card can literally only be traded for coins in the FIFA economy, and trading that for anything of real value is explicitly banned by EA. Also, EA will almost certainly ensure even the “virtual” value of the item will decrease over time, as they release better versions later in the cycle. Then, once the game cycle is over, the item becomes literally worthless.
    That would mean Panini stickers are more clear gambling than FIFA packs, right?

    To a small extent, I can see where you’re coming from, but either way, with stickers you’re buying a physical product which you have ownership of. The sell on value of which is dictated by the free market. I don’t believe panini “manipulate” packs in any way the same way as FIFA. Speaking anecdotally, me and some work colleagues did the World Cup release in 2018 together, and found some trading contacts. They all seemed to need players we had about 12 swaps of, suggesting Although it seemed to us like a single player was loaded in all packs, that wasn’t the same for everyone.

    In addition, and the key point here, if you’re reaching the “endgame” and only need a few missing items, you can buy them directly from panini for less than the price of a single pack. Imagine EA selling off PIM R9 for ~£2 and that would be the equivalent. There are no artificial barriers put up to get what you want trying to push you to buy more packs. In fact, you could very easily buy a full collection just by paying people in cash for any swaps they’ve got, and not give a penny to panini. Yes, you can do this with the FIFA market, but it’s a lot more time investment heavy.

    Taking the physical element out of it though, the “rush” you get when you see a walkout and it’s someone good is clearly designed to emulate the rush of winning a bet, and that’s the key thing about gambling. It’s not so much about the reward, but the feeling of pleasure you get from winning. This is exactly why gambling is addictive, and why loot boxes must be considered as gambling. Because they’re addictive.

    It’s also worth noting, nowhere does the report say they should be “banned”. Just that they should be given the same treatment as gambling, meaning age restrictions, warnings about addiction etc. I can’t see any way anyone can argue with that to be honest.
  • Knowlesdinho
    15133 posts World Class
    Idek wrote: »
    It should be a set price at launch and supported by the developer throughout the run of the game.

    Why would they put extra money into supporting the game throughout the year if they are getting zero extra income once people have already bought the game

    It's actually quite a common thing in PC gaming.
  • Robbo_86
    306 posts Sunday League Hero
    Just bring back prime icon SBC’s, get rid of FIFA points an let people grind to get the best players. I think if FIFA points get banned in the UK a lot of other countries will follow suit, I’d like to think so anyways
  • BuZuS
    1530 posts Play-Off Hero
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    You can't help yourself can you lol
    I think it's time to put you on ignore. All you can do is troll and try and bait for a reaction.
    Yes, please put me on ignore if you can't engage in a grown-up conversation.
  • Gromit
    4865 posts Big Money Move
    BuZuS wrote: »
    Could they sell specific players if loot boxes were removed?

    Imagine having the option to buy top players for like £100 a pop, then the likes of R9 for £500.

    🤮
    This will happen 100% when FIFA Points are banned. Promos like "3 PIM for only 499€!!!". Ugh.

    Zero chance that will happen. They could never be so brazen. The backlash would be huge. Just look at the fury over Battlefront and how much time/money it cost to unlock the main characters.

    Season pass will happen, and SHOULD happen. If you want LIVE year round content then you have to understand it takes people to produce it. I've said many times before, the FUT experience is akin to Netflix or Spotify and should and likely will be priced similarly.

    I think ultimately it will be a positive move for the game as EA will no longer have to hard sell, manipulate or generally screw you over to try coax more money out of you as they'll already be getting their revenue stream.

    That said, IMO the game was a far better experience before the avalanche of special cards, 99 pace players everywhere.
  • BuZuS
    1530 posts Play-Off Hero
    phep wrote: »
    Taking the physical element out of it though, the “rush” you get when you see a walkout and it’s someone good is clearly designed to emulate the rush of winning a bet, and that’s the key thing about gambling. It’s not so much about the reward, but the feeling of pleasure you get from winning. This is exactly why gambling is addictive, and why loot boxes must be considered as gambling. Because they’re addictive.
    This is a good point I've seen experts argue, that the opening "experience" is the key part, which doesn't apply to physical packs like Panini, Pokémon, Magic, ...
    meaning age restrictions, warnings about addiction etc. I can’t see any way anyone can argue with that to be honest.
    I don't argue with that. I don't see it making much of a difference, though. Warnings have never prevented anyone from anything (more or less). I don't understand how a kid can have an account with credit card backing to buy FIFA points, that is not monitored by the parents.
    I've never bought a single FIFA point and never will, but I always find it weird when people want government regulation to keep them from doing dumb things.
  • Fifa_Hawk_85
    16720 posts World Class
    Dont understand where all the excitement is coming from. Its only in the U.K this is going to happen. Fifa is a game played all over the world.

    They didnt change the FUT model when Belgium banned points and they wont if the U.K ban points.

    We'll get the Belgium treatment.

    Think you're underestimating the size of the market in the UK mate. It's not even comparable to Belguim. Not to mention many others will probably follow now.
  • Arsenalman
    3888 posts National Call-Up
    Making less definitively won’t make them fix or get new servers, just a rubbish company really
  • phep
    2015 posts Fans' Favourite
    BuZuS wrote: »
    phep wrote: »
    Taking the physical element out of it though, the “rush” you get when you see a walkout and it’s someone good is clearly designed to emulate the rush of winning a bet, and that’s the key thing about gambling. It’s not so much about the reward, but the feeling of pleasure you get from winning. This is exactly why gambling is addictive, and why loot boxes must be considered as gambling. Because they’re addictive.
    This is a good point I've seen experts argue, that the opening "experience" is the key part, which doesn't apply to physical packs like Panini, Pokémon, Magic, ...
    meaning age restrictions, warnings about addiction etc. I can’t see any way anyone can argue with that to be honest.
    I don't argue with that. I don't see it making much of a difference, though. Warnings have never prevented anyone from anything (more or less). I don't understand how a kid can have an account with credit card backing to buy FIFA points, that is not monitored by the parents.
    I've never bought a single FIFA point and never will, but I always find it weird when people want government regulation to keep them from doing dumb things.

    Warnings probably do very little, but they’re part of the law covering gambling so would likely need to be included in any measures either way. Whether or not they are effective is a different question (although there’s a chance it could unnerve some younger kids who may never have given it any thought before).

    Regarding kids, a lot of kids will have their parents card details for things like subscriptions, and if the parents aren’t tech savvy enough to remove them or apply spending limits etc, I can see how that could be a problem. Particularly when from the kids perspective it’s “this pack Costs x FP, to get those FP I just need to click this button and click ok”. If a kid is young/dumb enough, you may not realise that spending 80 quid is as easy as clicking 2 buttons, nor how much that might impact your parents. It’s far too easy to spend money these days with card info saved everywhere.

    Finally, regarding regulation, this isn’t about protecting you or me, it’s again about protecting kids. Gambling isn’t illegal. You can do it as much as you want. The problem is the law requires that you must be a certain age to be responsible for your actions, which is something I can agree with as kids are notoriously suggestible to advertising etc. And it’s easy to see how they can disconnect the rush of “winning” from the financial cost if they have no real understanding of money etc. These proposals don’t actually ban loot boxes, they just state that buying them with money should be treated as gambling, therefore under 18’s should be protected. If EA could guarantee that everyone buying Fifa points was over 18, then they could still sell all the FP’s they want.
  • Fifa_Hawk_85
    16720 posts World Class
    Arsenalman wrote: »
    Making less definitively won’t make them fix or get new servers, just a rubbish company really

    They will still be making more than enough to invest into the game. The only difference is that if they don't keep gameplay upto standards throughout the year, people wont renew the season pass which will be their main source of income.

    It will be in their best interests to keep gameplay at a decent standard.
  • Aguy9916
    1045 posts Professional
    Welcome news, but I can't believe people are excited about the potential of moving to a season pass model. It should be a set price at launch and supported by the developer throughout the run of the game.

    How have we as gamers got to the stage where we're excited by the potential of paying for a game and then continuing to pay a fee to play it based on a forced season model?

    Its welcome for me as long as the pass is reasonably priced. It's the way games are these days they give us a lot of quality content and charge a small amount for it... I happily pay for the same thing within pubg and cod warzone and I'd happily pay for fifas seasons system.... on a couple of conditions...

    1. They need to dramatically up the drop rate of good stuff. Under a pass system there is no reason why everyone shouldn't pack good cards, with no FP to worry about they may as well keep customers happy and allow people some fun cards.

    2. Ideally I'd like the market to go... theres to much advantage to people with time on their hands to trade and the end result of the market is lots of people losing out and a small few profiting... I'd happily see all untradeable... big drops regularly for everyone and big full clubs of players to use for objectives... people playing with what they have instead of chasing after the meta and top cards.
  • Fifa_Hawk_85
    16720 posts World Class
    Aguy9916 wrote: »
    Welcome news, but I can't believe people are excited about the potential of moving to a season pass model. It should be a set price at launch and supported by the developer throughout the run of the game.

    How have we as gamers got to the stage where we're excited by the potential of paying for a game and then continuing to pay a fee to play it based on a forced season model?

    Its welcome for me as long as the pass is reasonably priced. It's the way games are these days they give us a lot of quality content and charge a small amount for it... I happily pay for the same thing within pubg and cod warzone and I'd happily pay for fifas seasons system.... on a couple of conditions...

    1. They need to dramatically up the drop rate of good stuff. Under a pass system there is no reason why everyone shouldn't pack good cards, with no FP to worry about they may as well keep customers happy and allow people some fun cards.

    2. Ideally I'd like the market to go... theres to much advantage to people with time on their hands to trade and the end result of the market is lots of people losing out and a small few profiting... I'd happily see all untradeable... big drops regularly for everyone and big full clubs of players to use for objectives... people playing with what they have instead of chasing after the meta and top cards.

    It's surprising that quality gameplay isn't one of your conditions. That should be everyone's top condition for buying a season pass.

    Remember you don't need to buy the pass to play the game. So if gameplay is in the state it's in now then not very many people will be paying for extras.
  • Stone_cold_tea93
    3647 posts National Call-Up
    Dont understand where all the excitement is coming from. Its only in the U.K this is going to happen. Fifa is a game played all over the world.

    They didnt change the FUT model when Belgium banned points and they wont if the U.K ban points.

    We'll get the Belgium treatment.

    Think you're underestimating the size of the market in the UK mate. It's not even comparable to Belguim. Not to mention many others will probably follow now.

    We're a tiny island, now granted we will have a high ratio of Fifa players but there are richer populations in the world that will be splashing in Fifa Points.

    Just imagine how much money will be spent in some of these oil rich countries. I dont think this will have the impact some anticipate.

    The UK playerbase will be locked out. Thats it.
  • TheMightyBee
    4065 posts National Call-Up
    RadioShaq wrote: »
    The governments have tried to regulate Pokémon cards before. After this gains more traction they will probably revisit it. They will also start going after online voice chat and violence in games and other restrictions I would imagine.

    It's more about kids gambling and companies not taking responsibility for it, anyone who thinks opening packs isn't a game of chance involving real money is deluded.

    Violent games are marked 18, they will be fine.
  • CosmicFuzz
    839 posts Semi-Pro
    I've posted this elsewhere but to all those worried about how the game would look without loot boxes it is not our concern as players.
    It's up to EA to provide a fun engaging game to keep us players buying their products. Like any company with a product to sell EA either adapts or dies.
  • Fifa_Hawk_85
    16720 posts World Class
    Dont understand where all the excitement is coming from. Its only in the U.K this is going to happen. Fifa is a game played all over the world.

    They didnt change the FUT model when Belgium banned points and they wont if the U.K ban points.

    We'll get the Belgium treatment.

    Think you're underestimating the size of the market in the UK mate. It's not even comparable to Belguim. Not to mention many others will probably follow now.

    We're a tiny island, now granted we will have a high ratio of Fifa players but there are richer populations in the world that will be splashing in Fifa Points.

    Just imagine how much money will be spent in some of these oil rich countries. I dont think this will have the impact some anticipate.

    The UK playerbase will be locked out. Thats it.

    Very much doubt that will happen tbh. The UK will be the first of many, EA may aswell make the transition at the beginning of the game instead of half way through when these bans spread.

    I can't see any scenario where EA do the same as they done with Belguim.
  • Knowlesdinho
    15133 posts World Class
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    I've posted this elsewhere but to all those worried about how the game would look without loot boxes it is not our concern as players.
    It's up to EA to provide a fun engaging game to keep us players buying their products. Like any company with a product to sell EA either adapts or dies.

    But everyone on this forum that plays this game only plays because they love football and this is the only representation of football on the planet available to them.

  • Fifa_Hawk_85
    16720 posts World Class
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    I've posted this elsewhere but to all those worried about how the game would look without loot boxes it is not our concern as players.
    It's up to EA to provide a fun engaging game to keep us players buying their products. Like any company with a product to sell EA either adapts or dies.

    But everyone on this forum that plays this game only plays because they love football and this is the only representation of football on the planet available to them.

    He's right. The love of football can only get them so far. If things were to deteriorate even further they will lose the playerbase.

    People would move to PES or FM for their football fix.
  • Knowlesdinho
    15133 posts World Class
    CosmicFuzz wrote: »
    I've posted this elsewhere but to all those worried about how the game would look without loot boxes it is not our concern as players.
    It's up to EA to provide a fun engaging game to keep us players buying their products. Like any company with a product to sell EA either adapts or dies.

    But everyone on this forum that plays this game only plays because they love football and this is the only representation of football on the planet available to them.

    He's right. The love of football can only get them so far. If things were to deteriorate even further they will lose the playerbase.

    People would move to PES or FM for their football fix.

    Nah mate... Same people will continue playing this game complaining about it in almost every thread whilst maintaining that they only play because they love football...

    ... That fifa hawk fella is one of the worst for it. :trollface:
  • Stone_cold_tea93
    3647 posts National Call-Up
    Dont understand where all the excitement is coming from. Its only in the U.K this is going to happen. Fifa is a game played all over the world.

    They didnt change the FUT model when Belgium banned points and they wont if the U.K ban points.

    We'll get the Belgium treatment.

    Think you're underestimating the size of the market in the UK mate. It's not even comparable to Belguim. Not to mention many others will probably follow now.

    We're a tiny island, now granted we will have a high ratio of Fifa players but there are richer populations in the world that will be splashing in Fifa Points.

    Just imagine how much money will be spent in some of these oil rich countries. I dont think this will have the impact some anticipate.

    The UK playerbase will be locked out. Thats it.

    I can't see any scenario where EA do the same as they done with Belguim.

    What makes the U.K different?
  • CustardHippo
    3282 posts National Call-Up
    Was only a matter of time. Maybe they will be banned in time for 21 afterall.

    I think, not 100%, that even if they were not completely banned in time for release and if it was still up and being discussed/action being taken, that EA would (as a responsible company) have to remove them anyway.

    Companies should be enforcing responsible gambling measures and as such, if loot boxes were therefore being classed as gambling, EA would be duty bound to enforce restrictions. Outside of making the game an 18 and offering timeouts, payment limits etc which would have to happen if loot boxes were classed as gambling, then EA would be forced to remove them. Good news indeed.
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