Arsenal Football Club

Comments

  • SDoofus
    5701 posts Big Money Move
    edited September 16
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    They're definitely being overrated, currently. Bellerin has never been anything special, defensively. Going forward, he is good, but how does that help them at the back?

    Tierney... I mean, really? Sure, he could come good, but for now, he's a LB who has spent his career at Celtic so far. I feel like a lot of the hope that Tierney will be good comes from fans comparing signing him to when we signed Robertson, but the reality is that Robertson is on another level, and we struck gold, which doesn't happen very often. Tierney replicating Robertson's rise seems very unlikely. Especially without a manager who squeezes the absolute best out of his players, like Klopp does.
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    They're definitely being overrated, currently. Bellerin has never been anything special, defensively. Going forward, he is good, but how does that help them at the back?

    Tierney... I mean, really? Sure, he could come good, but for now, he's a LB who has spent his career at Celtic so far. I feel like a lot of the hope that Tierney will be good comes from fans comparing signing him to when we signed Robertson, but the reality is that Robertson is on another level, and we struck gold, which doesn't happen very often. Tierney replicating Robertson's rise seems very unlikely. Especially without a manager who squeezes the absolute best out of his players, like Klopp does.

    No the hope for Tierney is that he has a lot of talent and everyone at Celtic rates him as the best player they've had since van Dijk. Robertson may be on another level atm, but there isn't anything saying Tierney cant get there. Klopp is a big factor though I agree.
  • Tropicaz XBL
    4346 posts National Call-Up
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?
  • TakeItSlow
    7540 posts League Winner
    SDoofus wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Funny how the mood has changed so quickly. Arsenal fans were being so bullish and arrogant for a little while there. Only took a draw against Watford to see all that false bravado come crashing down. You can't say Arsenal are any better than United or Chelsea, currently. If anything, they're not even as good as them now. Chelsea's young players have hit the ground running, and United's defence looks solid.

    Adding to this, Arsenal look incredibly over reliant on one player. Aubameyang. That's never good.

    Yes but at least we have that player, Chelsea and United do not. Could well be the reason why we make top 4.
  • SDoofus
    5701 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.

    Forgot about CHO.

    With Tammy proving to know where the goal is, and Mount's performances looking pretty classy, adding CHO into the mix makes things even more interesting/scary. What's happening with Pulisic, though? Not seen him being mentioned much? Has he been underwhelming? I feel like I hear a lot more about Mount than him.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.

    Forgot about CHO.

    With Tammy proving to know where the goal is, and Mount's performances looking pretty classy, adding CHO into the mix makes things even more interesting/scary. What's happening with Pulisic, though? Not seen him being mentioned much? Has he been underwhelming? I feel like I hear a lot more about Mount than him.

    Nah Pulisic has been decent when he said played, new and young player, so he was eased in, then missed out yesterday due to the formation change.

    Looks a good player, I’d expect him to lock down his spot come the end of the season.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
  • Tropicaz XBL
    4346 posts National Call-Up
    El_Nino wrote: »
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?

    We've had quite a few of these debates in the Summer so I don't really want to go back regurgitating what was already said. I feel like with the correct system we should concede a lot less than we do and create a lot more than we currently are for our attack, which is the 3rd best on paper talent wise.

    I do agree our depth has been exposed recently though, and a lot of them are very young players clearly struggling with the demands of having to uproot systems and tasks every week, however a lot of that comes down to the manager as well.

    The main reason why I feel like we should be getting 4th is the fact Emery has had 3 windows/16 months in charge and over 150m invested into a squad which hasn't been significantly downgraded by departures (bar Ramsey), whilst our competition are Man United who are struggling just as much as us in terms of finding a good balance under a manager who has only been there for 5 months permanently, and Chelsea with a new manager coming off a transfer ban and the sale of Hazard. If he can't get 4th with those barometers then it really is incredibly damning on his management.
  • SDoofus
    5701 posts Big Money Move
    edited September 16
    El_Nino wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.

    Forgot about CHO.

    With Tammy proving to know where the goal is, and Mount's performances looking pretty classy, adding CHO into the mix makes things even more interesting/scary. What's happening with Pulisic, though? Not seen him being mentioned much? Has he been underwhelming? I feel like I hear a lot more about Mount than him.

    Nah Pulisic has been decent when he said played, new and young player, so he was eased in, then missed out yesterday due to the formation change.

    Looks a good player, I’d expect him to lock down his spot come the end of the season.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
    Tammy
    CHO - Mount - Pulisic
    Jorginho - Kante

    That looks potentially very good.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    El_Nino wrote: »
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?

    We've had quite a few of these debates in the Summer so I don't really want to go back regurgitating what was already said. I feel like with the correct system we should concede a lot less than we do and create a lot more than we currently are for our attack, which is the 3rd best on paper talent wise.

    I do agree our depth has been exposed recently though, and a lot of them are very young players clearly struggling with the demands of having to uproot systems and tasks every week, however a lot of that comes down to the manager as well.

    The main reason why I feel like we should be getting 4th is the fact Emery has had 3 windows/16 months in charge and over 150m invested into a squad which hasn't been significantly downgraded by departures (bar Ramsey), whilst our competition are Man United who are struggling just as much as us in terms of finding a good balance under a manager who has only been there for 5 months permanently, and Chelsea with a new manager coming off a transfer ban and the sale of Hazard. If he can't get 4th with those barometers then it really is incredibly damning on his management.

    Very good points regarding Emery tbf. Nail on the head as to why your right, you should absolutely be getting 4th with Chelsea/Uniteds current situation.

    I still don’t agree with you having the best squad out of us however I agree that topics been covered, probably better revisited closer to Christmas.

    I take it for you then it’s Emery our if you miss top 4?
  • Ashy
    9894 posts League Winner
    Oops wrong thread this must be the Chelsea one
  • SDoofus is Scott from the Playmaker?
  • Apollo
    15695 posts World Class
    Ashy wrote: »
    Oops wrong thread this must be the Chelsea one

    Welcome to what most days are like in the United thread with Arsenal :D
  • Tropicaz XBL
    4346 posts National Call-Up
    edited September 16
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?

    We've had quite a few of these debates in the Summer so I don't really want to go back regurgitating what was already said. I feel like with the correct system we should concede a lot less than we do and create a lot more than we currently are for our attack, which is the 3rd best on paper talent wise.

    I do agree our depth has been exposed recently though, and a lot of them are very young players clearly struggling with the demands of having to uproot systems and tasks every week, however a lot of that comes down to the manager as well.

    The main reason why I feel like we should be getting 4th is the fact Emery has had 3 windows/16 months in charge and over 150m invested into a squad which hasn't been significantly downgraded by departures (bar Ramsey), whilst our competition are Man United who are struggling just as much as us in terms of finding a good balance under a manager who has only been there for 5 months permanently, and Chelsea with a new manager coming off a transfer ban and the sale of Hazard. If he can't get 4th with those barometers then it really is incredibly damning on his management.

    Very good points regarding Emery tbf. Nail on the head as to why your right, you should absolutely be getting 4th with Chelsea/Uniteds current situation.

    I still don’t agree with you having the best squad out of us however I agree that topics been covered, probably better revisited closer to Christmas.

    I take it for you then it’s Emery our if you miss top 4?

    I've been quite surprised by how good Chelsea have looked going forward under Lampard so far, and admittedly I thought Mount/Abraham would find it a lot tougher to adapt to the PL than they are finding it currently. Remains to be seen how they keep that up over a season though under such an intense style with UCL football factored in too.

    And tbf, as I said before the start of the season, even if we reach top 4 I'd be very hesitant on offering him a new deal based on what I've seen from his tenure so far. Needs to improve big time.

  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.

    Forgot about CHO.

    With Tammy proving to know where the goal is, and Mount's performances looking pretty classy, adding CHO into the mix makes things even more interesting/scary. What's happening with Pulisic, though? Not seen him being mentioned much? Has he been underwhelming? I feel like I hear a lot more about Mount than him.

    Nah Pulisic has been decent when he said played, new and young player, so he was eased in, then missed out yesterday due to the formation change.

    Looks a good player, I’d expect him to lock down his spot come the end of the season.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
    Tammy
    CHO - Mount - Pulisic
    Jorginho - Kante

    That looks potentially very good.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
    Jorginho—Kante
    Emerson—Rudiger—Tomori/Christiansen—James
    Kepa

    That backline for me also looks better than Arsenal’s and much closer to Uniteds.

    I see no reason we can’t get 4th it our youth keeps improving as you’d hope it would.
    The even better news for us being there isn’t a single player in that line up who doesn’t have 4/5 years left, with potentially 7 players having a decade of top level football or more still to play.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?

    We've had quite a few of these debates in the Summer so I don't really want to go back regurgitating what was already said. I feel like with the correct system we should concede a lot less than we do and create a lot more than we currently are for our attack, which is the 3rd best on paper talent wise.

    I do agree our depth has been exposed recently though, and a lot of them are very young players clearly struggling with the demands of having to uproot systems and tasks every week, however a lot of that comes down to the manager as well.

    The main reason why I feel like we should be getting 4th is the fact Emery has had 3 windows/16 months in charge and over 150m invested into a squad which hasn't been significantly downgraded by departures (bar Ramsey), whilst our competition are Man United who are struggling just as much as us in terms of finding a good balance under a manager who has only been there for 5 months permanently, and Chelsea with a new manager coming off a transfer ban and the sale of Hazard. If he can't get 4th with those barometers then it really is incredibly damning on his management.

    Very good points regarding Emery tbf. Nail on the head as to why your right, you should absolutely be getting 4th with Chelsea/Uniteds current situation.

    I still don’t agree with you having the best squad out of us however I agree that topics been covered, probably better revisited closer to Christmas.

    I take it for you then it’s Emery our if you miss top 4?

    I've been quite surprised by how good Chelsea have looked going forward under Lampard so far, and admittedly I thought Mount/Abraham would find it a lot tougher to adapt to the PL than they are finding it currently. Remains to be seen how they keep that up over a season though under such an intense style with UCL football factored in too.

    And tbf, as I said before the start of the season, even if we reach top 4 I'd be very hesitant on offering him a new deal based on what I've seen from his tenure so far. Needs to improve big time.

    Fair comments, and you make a fair point regarding our youths consistency over a 40+ game season, but franks already rotated fairly successfully so that’s promising.

    If you were to sack Emery who would you want replacing him?
  • WryLucky
    1848 posts Play-Off Hero
    Considering we've got two of our best midfielders )RLC and Kante) injured still and lost our best player as well as all the other injuries we've had. I think we've done pretty good
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Remember at the start of the year how your defence didn’t matter because your attacks just so good?
    How’s that going?

    You have no right to talk about defence, you've conceded the second most goals in the league :joy:

    I have every right to talk about defence, I’ve never said anything other than it’s appalling, and hopefully will improve with James/Rudiger back. And it was significantly tighter with Rudiger.

    Just because the team I support can’t defend doesn’t mean I can’t call your team out for being embarrassing at the back, the other difference being we’ve had a transfer ban stopping us from improving, what’s your excuse?

    We've been through this many times ffs. Our excuse is that 3 of our back 4 are injured.

    How can you say you hope your defence improved with James/Rudiger back, but then condemn our defense when 3 of our 4 players are out.

    Such hypocrisy...

    I’ve said I hope our defence improves, I’ve not said it will? Although as I say it looked much better with Rudiger in, and that was with Azpi and Alonso still.

    Bellerin/Holding/Tierney could improve your defence massively, I know most Arsenal fans believe they will, but I think I speak for the majority of neutrals when I say I disagree, you’ve literally just said Luiz has issues due to the midfield being poor, how will that change when defenders are back...

    Yh but you're giving an excuse for Chelsea but then saying we cant use the exact same excuse? Doesn't work like that.

    Also the loss of Kante for you is big at the back. Similarly we need to get Torreira back to speed in a system which fits him as he is our best bet of stemming the midfield issues.

    I can't underestimate the effect of the full back too. You yourself have seen Azpi cost you goals. It's the same for us but on both sides..

    The thing is Torreira for me isn’t the best, he was abysmal the last half of last season, and hasn’t shown anything to say he’ll improve, he might do, but for now it’s a big maybe.

    Tierney is unproven so level with James realistically, both will help over there poor counterparts but hard to say how much.

    Personally the difference Rudiger/Kante will make be much much more significant than the difference Holding and Bellerin will make.

    Only time will tell but I don’t think anyone outside of arsenal really rates the players your talking about(which might be underestimating them, only time will tell again)

    Regarding the CBS, you had 72 million to spend, you could have gotten a very good CB for that one way or another imo.

    Yh I agree Torreira is still pending. He was brilliant for a few months, and brilliant in Serie A. One issue is we are asking him to play further forward than he did last season, which doesn't suit him at all. We need to put him where he plays best and work around that.

    Tierney isn't as unproven as James. He was the Celtic captain, has been the Scotland captain, has played in the CL too. Yes it's not a cert, but from everything I have watched and read, he is a fantastic player. I am more excited about him than anyone else in our squad.

    Yep Rudiger and Kante will have more of an impact, no issues with that. But, we dont need to outdo you in every department, we just need to get more stability back to our team and they will help with that.

    I have no issue with you not rating them, proof is in the pudding and time will tell.

    I have been critical over Bellerin in the past although before he got injured last season he was looking much better. Holding looked good before he was injured but it was only a small sample of games so we will see. Tierney is the one I do rate highly and expect a lot from.

    If there were 70m rated CBs floating around why didnt City go for one? I wouldn't have wanted Maguire for what United signed him for. And who else was available? Like I said we tried for Upa and he wasnt available.

    I just don’t believe that a club like Arsenal with70mill can’t find a decent CB if they really want too, but I guess that’s speculation, neither of us knows the full truth on it.

    You really need your defence on par with ours at least, because our central midfield options are undoubtedly stronger than yours, and while your attack is great on paper, with Pepe starting underwhelmingly and Abraham/Mount doing so well, plus CHO to return, I hardly think your significantly stronger than us going forward either, which is reflected with us scoring 3 times more than you so far.

    Don’t get me wrong these are all opinions based of very little game time, however with how ridiculously cocky a few Arsenal fans were getting pre season you can blame the neutrals for pointing out your currently not all that.

    Forgot about CHO.

    With Tammy proving to know where the goal is, and Mount's performances looking pretty classy, adding CHO into the mix makes things even more interesting/scary. What's happening with Pulisic, though? Not seen him being mentioned much? Has he been underwhelming? I feel like I hear a lot more about Mount than him.

    Nah Pulisic has been decent when he said played, new and young player, so he was eased in, then missed out yesterday due to the formation change.

    Looks a good player, I’d expect him to lock down his spot come the end of the season.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
    Tammy
    CHO - Mount - Pulisic
    Jorginho - Kante

    That looks potentially very good.

    Tammy
    CHO—Mount—Pulisic
    Jorginho—Kante
    Emerson—Rudiger—Tomori/Christiansen—James
    Kepa

    That backline for me also looks better than Arsenal’s and much closer to Uniteds.

    I see no reason we can’t get 4th it our youth keeps improving as you’d hope it would.
    The even better news for us being there isn’t a single player in that line up who doesn’t have 4/5 years left, with potentially 7 players having a decade of top level football or more still to play.

    Disagree with the backline, but time will tell. I think they are relatively equal on paper, the bigger issue is your midfield offers more protection.
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    WryLucky wrote: »
    Considering we've got two of our best midfielders )RLC and Kante) injured still and lost our best player as well as all the other injuries we've had. I think we've done pretty good

    Yep you have, no arguement.

    But.. bare in mind everyone is making a fuss of Arsenal off the back of this Watford game, but you dropped 2 points against a newly promoted team at home being 2-0 up, which is far worse a crime.

    Not judging you on it as I think its far too early to draw conclusions but that's my point.
  • Ashy
    9894 posts League Winner
    edited September 16
    If Chelsea's youth keep it up (Abraham, Mount, James when he comes in, CHO when he returns) then they are favourites for 4th ahead of Arsenal due to the fact we don't have a proper DM that will protect the defence, our defence once fit will be fine it's the protection from Xhaka/Guendouzi or Torreira we need a Kante type player.

    If Emery were to go then we go one of two ways, get someone inexperienced but it could well pay off such as Arteta/Ljungberg/Viera. Or go with someone like Allegri/Nagelsmann/Rodgers/Howe. Personally I'd prefer Nagelsmann but I think someone like Arteta has a big future but it might be too soon
  • WryLucky
    1848 posts Play-Off Hero
    arsenalap wrote: »
    WryLucky wrote: »
    Considering we've got two of our best midfielders )RLC and Kante) injured still and lost our best player as well as all the other injuries we've had. I think we've done pretty good

    Yep you have, no arguement.

    But.. bare in mind everyone is making a fuss of Arsenal off the back of this Watford game, but you dropped 2 points against a newly promoted team at home being 2-0 up, which is far worse a crime.

    Not judging you on it as I think its far too early to draw conclusions but that's my point.

    You can't be sure what'll you'll get from a newly promoted side, Norwich and Wolves last season are good examples. Sheffield United have an unorthodox style so they can surprise teams.
  • Tropicaz XBL
    4346 posts National Call-Up
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    as Arsenalap said, I'm at a point now where it's past blaming individuals, the way Emery sets us up tactically is a major factor into how poorly we defend and how much pressure we bring onto us.

    Look at how unbalanced our team/approach was yesterday:

    Unexperienced, 20(?) year old midfielder playing RB with basically zero support from a 20 year old midfield infront of him against Watford's best player and Holebas all day. No idea why it took Emery 70 minutes to try and close that avenue by putting Pepe RW and bringing Torreira on, by then the damage was done.

    A defender who can't play out of the back being tasked to.. play out of the back in Sokratis.

    Kolasinac, a player who can't defend anyway and struggles to move up and down the pitch, being tasked with pressuring the man on the ball by himself for 60 minutes as Ceballos rarely made any defensive contribution (bar for the goal).

    A defensive midfielder who can't move across the pitch to cover space, and struggles to realise danger (came rushing out of position for the counter attack which led to their penalty).

    An attacking midfielder who offers nothing off the ball - got bullied off of it countless times and lost possession, as did Pepe in an un-natural right striker position which was rendered useless for the first 60 minutes anyway as they sat deep.


    It's been 17 months now and we're still no closer to seeing what our best formation/line up is. We've had a smattering of very good performances using different formations (4231 against Spurs/Liverpool last season, diamond against Spurs/Chelsea, 3atb v Napoli) however they've been few and far between. For the most part, Emery's tactical flexibility has led to way too much tinkering and as a result we've lost most of our attacking creation and identity bar playing in the fullbacks, with the defence gradually getting worse. I understand we need to accept that there has been a huge churn in squad turnover over the past year and some situations have been out of his control (best defenders being injured, Ramsey already set on leaving before he came in), however to still not see our best line up which caters to our attacking qualities and tightens us up defensively is very concerning.

    As all of us have said, we have the 4th best squad in the league on paper we should be getting top 4 easily, so if he fails then he only has himself to blame and he'll be immediately booted out of the door when his contract is up next Summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bellerin/Tierney start to be rushed back now as the back ups for them are clearly not working, and fullback output seems to his main form of chance creation.

    While I agree Emery is probably too flexible, I just don’t agree that you have the 4th best squad, and certainly not easily. Your squad depth is clearly abysmal, and your starting XI is uncertain and still poor in central position(excluding ST) when compared to United/Chelsea.

    I’m just really not sure what makes you think you clearly have the 4th best squad?

    We've had quite a few of these debates in the Summer so I don't really want to go back regurgitating what was already said. I feel like with the correct system we should concede a lot less than we do and create a lot more than we currently are for our attack, which is the 3rd best on paper talent wise.

    I do agree our depth has been exposed recently though, and a lot of them are very young players clearly struggling with the demands of having to uproot systems and tasks every week, however a lot of that comes down to the manager as well.

    The main reason why I feel like we should be getting 4th is the fact Emery has had 3 windows/16 months in charge and over 150m invested into a squad which hasn't been significantly downgraded by departures (bar Ramsey), whilst our competition are Man United who are struggling just as much as us in terms of finding a good balance under a manager who has only been there for 5 months permanently, and Chelsea with a new manager coming off a transfer ban and the sale of Hazard. If he can't get 4th with those barometers then it really is incredibly damning on his management.

    Very good points regarding Emery tbf. Nail on the head as to why your right, you should absolutely be getting 4th with Chelsea/Uniteds current situation.

    I still don’t agree with you having the best squad out of us however I agree that topics been covered, probably better revisited closer to Christmas.

    I take it for you then it’s Emery our if you miss top 4?

    I've been quite surprised by how good Chelsea have looked going forward under Lampard so far, and admittedly I thought Mount/Abraham would find it a lot tougher to adapt to the PL than they are finding it currently. Remains to be seen how they keep that up over a season though under such an intense style with UCL football factored in too.

    And tbf, as I said before the start of the season, even if we reach top 4 I'd be very hesitant on offering him a new deal based on what I've seen from his tenure so far. Needs to improve big time.

    Fair comments, and you make a fair point regarding our youths consistency over a 40+ game season, but franks already rotated fairly successfully so that’s promising.

    If you were to sack Emery who would you want replacing him?

    Unfortunately the manager market seems quite dry in terms of availability/talent, but from what I've seen Favre has looked really promising at Dortmund as has Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim/Leipzig. Hassnhutl/Bielsa's styles also intrigue me however I'd be worried at whether they could make the step up in ambitions to a bigger club.

    I'm not sure whether we have the structure in place that would render managers like Allegri/Mourinho a success. They need vast backing (more than Emery has had) and I don't think a fanbase which is used to expansive, attacking football in the last 15 years (2000-2015) would take lightly to pragmatic managers like them.
  • Tropicaz XBL
    4346 posts National Call-Up
    WryLucky wrote: »
    arsenalap wrote: »
    WryLucky wrote: »
    Considering we've got two of our best midfielders )RLC and Kante) injured still and lost our best player as well as all the other injuries we've had. I think we've done pretty good

    Yep you have, no arguement.

    But.. bare in mind everyone is making a fuss of Arsenal off the back of this Watford game, but you dropped 2 points against a newly promoted team at home being 2-0 up, which is far worse a crime.

    Not judging you on it as I think its far too early to draw conclusions but that's my point.

    You can't be sure what'll you'll get from a newly promoted side, Norwich and Wolves last season are good examples. Sheffield United have an unorthodox style so they can surprise teams.

    Also the same with a team under a new manager for the first time, especially away from home.

    Doesn't excuse the way we performed in that second half though which was nothing short of catastrophic. Very very lucky to get out with a point in the end.
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    Another thing I noticed was Auba was wide a lot with Pepe more central, just as they drifted naturally that way. The goals came from the times they weren't.

    That doesn't suit either of them.

    Nelson isn't ready, so the best solution is 352.

    Kola can act more like a LW, pushing Auba and Pepe a bit more central and right benefiting both of them.

    Honestly, I want 352 in the next game, with Holding back.

    If we dont we will see the same issues.
  • El_Nino
    3581 posts National Call-Up
    edited September 16
    SDoofus is Scott from the Playmaker?

    Oh look it’s another tool
  • arsenalap
    5712 posts Big Money Move
    My memory has faded me. I was on the playmaker too, but what's the issue?
  • TakeItSlow
    7540 posts League Winner
    This is the Arsenal thread and there's 3 of you chatting complete nonsense, what is wrong with you? The mods said to can it in the United thread, either talk about football or go elsewhere to talk about this tripe. Get a life some of you.
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