Manchester United Football Club

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  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Pxul_ wrote: »
    Tuanzebe has the potential to be a quality Center half, just needs some game time.

    Yep, Tuanzebe is an amazing prospect, he's going to be a class centre half. He'll get plenty of game time this season, he's literally our first choice backup and he's only 21, he'll play a decent amount of games this season.

    Henderson is starting for a PL team and is only 22, he's really impressed out on loan for them last season, hopefully he can continue his good start this season and if he does I believe he'll become our number 1 at the club before too long.

    @TakeItSlow took issue with the class of 92 comment that someone made and massively exaggerated in the other direction. Tuanzebe is absolutely good enough to make it at United and there's no doubt in my mind he will. Henderson is showing good signs of being able to be our goalkeeper in the future.

    Rashford will get his best goal returns this season now he's a consistent starter and one of the leaders of the attack, we've established this before that he judges a 21 year old Rashford like hes 27 and in his prime, he's completely off the mark with his comments about him.

    McTominay to me is good enough to be a squad player for a top 6 team. He's improving all the time and on the whole is doing well.

    i'm not off the mark with my comments about Rashford. Technically you can see he isn't good enough. With the likes of Tuanzebe and such yes they might be good enough to make it, but not title winning. United fans getting this completely misconstrued, what do you want from these young players? Top 4 challenge? Fine, they'll be good enough. Never gonna win the league with the current crop though.

    You do realise that Ole wanted more signings this past summer? He knew what we all know that we needed additional signings. If we had got the DM that Ole wanted McTominay would have been the squad player that I was referring to, a role that he is good enough to hold.

    He also wanted a signing at 10, we tried to sign Dybala and then Eriksen. We needed additional signings that he didn't get. The squad has weaknesses, no one is disputing that, but Tuanzebe, Rashford, Gomes and Greenwood are more than good enough to make it at the club and will be successful here.

    I believe Henderson will as well, but he needs to continue to do well in the PL before making a judgement one way or the other on him. 22 is nothing for a keeper, he's got plenty of time.

    Garner I'm reserving judgement on, I think it's too early for him so we can remove him from the discussion for now.

    Pereira isn't good enough for where we want to get back to (despite really liking him as a player). He probably wouldn't have played at all so far if we had signed the 10 that Ole wanted.

    So that list can be amended to:

    Rashford
    Tuanzebe
    Henderson
    Greenwood
    Gomes

    McTominay (as a squad player).

    You didn't try to sign Dybala, the potential option of a Dybala swap deal arose because Juve didn't want him. You didn't actively go for him. You didn't go for Eriksen either.

    So as a United fan you think, to get back to where you want to be, which is obviously challenging city for the title that eventually this side -

    Henderson

    AWB - Tuanzebe - Maguire - Shaw

    Pogba - new DM

    New 10 say Eriksen for argument sakes

    Greenwood - Martial - Rashford

    Challenges City for the title? Can't see it myself, unless you have a better manager in charge who is SAF esque.

    Saying stuff like this is moronic. If someone had done a mock formation of all of our current players, 3-4 years ago, the notion that they'd be a title challenging, CL winning team would have been laughed off the forum by the likes of you.

    Salah - Chelsea flop
    Firmino - decent AM for Hoffenheim, nothing too special
    Mane - Southampton is his level
    Wijnaldum - relegated with Newcastle
    Henderson - average player
    Fabinho - Real Madrid reject
    Robertson - relegated with Hull
    VVD - Southampton his level
    Matip - Who?
    TAA - 16 year old midfielder playing for the youth
    Alisson - Who?

    That FIFA 14 vs 19 ratings thing posted in the Liverpool thread sums it up perfectly. You literally can't know that the team you posted would be poor.

    Under the current manager it would be poor. Plain and simple, majority of those players play now and it’s quite poor.

    If you take the results at face value, then yeah, maybe, but the xPoints actually has them 2nd in the League, which presents an argument that the tide will turn soon, and the results will reflect the performances. As much as I don't want that to happen.

    Arsenal are 13th and are being vastly outperformed by United. Arsenal have been lucky with their results.

    Xpoints :joy: :joy: 3 wins in 16 games. Could not care less about xpoints or xg, means nothing. If you don't score you don't score, if you don't get the points then you don't get the points. People need to open their eyes.

    Perhaps you should read up on it, considering how ignorant you sound.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40699431

    I couldn't care less. The facts are 3 wins in 16 games is all you need to know to see that it isn't good enough. Spend your life going by xG, a team with mid table xG could get relegated if the ball doesn't go into the back of the net, do you think they'll then care about xG? Just because you're expected goals doesn't mean you'll get them, still dependant on the players involved.

    Literally doesn't interest me.

    Lol, it should interest you, because it essentially proves that United are performing better than Arsenal, and when the results start reflecting the performances, which they almost always do, you'll be overtaken and a tidal wave of happy, smug United fans are going to slam into your face.

    That's where you're very wrong. We both know football matches aren't decided by stats, just stop. So many other factors. I'll list a couple.

    United have their full strength side.
    Arsenal have their main full backs still to come into the team along with a few new players to still settle in.
    Teams can change, one game can change a sides xG and suddenly put them above and beyond.

    It all means naff all in the grand scheme of things. We get to May and we're 3rd, United 5th. You reckon United fans will care about having a good xG in August? It is utterly ridiculous to rely on xG. Not sure why you're harping on about it, look at the facts.

    This proves you don't understand it.
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    edited September 9
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Pxul_ wrote: »
    Tuanzebe has the potential to be a quality Center half, just needs some game time.

    Yep, Tuanzebe is an amazing prospect, he's going to be a class centre half. He'll get plenty of game time this season, he's literally our first choice backup and he's only 21, he'll play a decent amount of games this season.

    Henderson is starting for a PL team and is only 22, he's really impressed out on loan for them last season, hopefully he can continue his good start this season and if he does I believe he'll become our number 1 at the club before too long.

    @TakeItSlow took issue with the class of 92 comment that someone made and massively exaggerated in the other direction. Tuanzebe is absolutely good enough to make it at United and there's no doubt in my mind he will. Henderson is showing good signs of being able to be our goalkeeper in the future.

    Rashford will get his best goal returns this season now he's a consistent starter and one of the leaders of the attack, we've established this before that he judges a 21 year old Rashford like hes 27 and in his prime, he's completely off the mark with his comments about him.

    McTominay to me is good enough to be a squad player for a top 6 team. He's improving all the time and on the whole is doing well.

    i'm not off the mark with my comments about Rashford. Technically you can see he isn't good enough. With the likes of Tuanzebe and such yes they might be good enough to make it, but not title winning. United fans getting this completely misconstrued, what do you want from these young players? Top 4 challenge? Fine, they'll be good enough. Never gonna win the league with the current crop though.

    You do realise that Ole wanted more signings this past summer? He knew what we all know that we needed additional signings. If we had got the DM that Ole wanted McTominay would have been the squad player that I was referring to, a role that he is good enough to hold.

    He also wanted a signing at 10, we tried to sign Dybala and then Eriksen. We needed additional signings that he didn't get. The squad has weaknesses, no one is disputing that, but Tuanzebe, Rashford, Gomes and Greenwood are more than good enough to make it at the club and will be successful here.

    I believe Henderson will as well, but he needs to continue to do well in the PL before making a judgement one way or the other on him. 22 is nothing for a keeper, he's got plenty of time.

    Garner I'm reserving judgement on, I think it's too early for him so we can remove him from the discussion for now.

    Pereira isn't good enough for where we want to get back to (despite really liking him as a player). He probably wouldn't have played at all so far if we had signed the 10 that Ole wanted.

    So that list can be amended to:

    Rashford
    Tuanzebe
    Henderson
    Greenwood
    Gomes

    McTominay (as a squad player).

    You didn't try to sign Dybala, the potential option of a Dybala swap deal arose because Juve didn't want him. You didn't actively go for him. You didn't go for Eriksen either.

    So as a United fan you think, to get back to where you want to be, which is obviously challenging city for the title that eventually this side -

    Henderson

    AWB - Tuanzebe - Maguire - Shaw

    Pogba - new DM

    New 10 say Eriksen for argument sakes

    Greenwood - Martial - Rashford

    Challenges City for the title? Can't see it myself, unless you have a better manager in charge who is SAF esque.

    Saying stuff like this is moronic. If someone had done a mock formation of all of our current players, 3-4 years ago, the notion that they'd be a title challenging, CL winning team would have been laughed off the forum by the likes of you.

    Salah - Chelsea flop
    Firmino - decent AM for Hoffenheim, nothing too special
    Mane - Southampton is his level
    Wijnaldum - relegated with Newcastle
    Henderson - average player
    Fabinho - Real Madrid reject
    Robertson - relegated with Hull
    VVD - Southampton his level
    Matip - Who?
    TAA - 16 year old midfielder playing for the youth
    Alisson - Who?

    That FIFA 14 vs 19 ratings thing posted in the Liverpool thread sums it up perfectly. You literally can't know that the team you posted would be poor.

    Under the current manager it would be poor. Plain and simple, majority of those players play now and it’s quite poor.

    If you take the results at face value, then yeah, maybe, but the xPoints actually has them 2nd in the League, which presents an argument that the tide will turn soon, and the results will reflect the performances. As much as I don't want that to happen.

    Arsenal are 13th and are being vastly outperformed by United. Arsenal have been lucky with their results.

    Xpoints :joy: :joy: 3 wins in 16 games. Could not care less about xpoints or xg, means nothing. If you don't score you don't score, if you don't get the points then you don't get the points. People need to open their eyes.

    Perhaps you should read up on it, considering how ignorant you sound.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40699431

    I couldn't care less. The facts are 3 wins in 16 games is all you need to know to see that it isn't good enough. Spend your life going by xG, a team with mid table xG could get relegated if the ball doesn't go into the back of the net, do you think they'll then care about xG? Just because you're expected goals doesn't mean you'll get them, still dependant on the players involved.

    Literally doesn't interest me.

    Lol, it should interest you, because it essentially proves that United are performing better than Arsenal, and when the results start reflecting the performances, which they almost always do, you'll be overtaken and a tidal wave of happy, smug United fans are going to slam into your face.

    That's where you're very wrong. We both know football matches aren't decided by stats, just stop. So many other factors. I'll list a couple.

    United have their full strength side.
    Arsenal have their main full backs still to come into the team along with a few new players to still settle in.
    Teams can change, one game can change a sides xG and suddenly put them above and beyond.

    It all means naff all in the grand scheme of things. We get to May and we're 3rd, United 5th. You reckon United fans will care about having a good xG in August? It is utterly ridiculous to rely on xG. Not sure why you're harping on about it, look at the facts.

    This proves you don't understand it.

    My point is it constantly changes game by game... Your logic would dictate that United will beat Leicester in their next game. Not that cut and dry, Leicester for example could get a last minute pen to win or draw. That's why looking at xG to make you feel better is pointless, its nonsense.
  • El_Nino
    3232 posts National Call-Up
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.
  • Apollo
    15084 posts World Class
    edited September 9
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    Spot on.
  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    edited September 9
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.

    You put it exactly right there, the points on the table is the only thing that matters. I'm not gonna rely on Pepe/Auba bottling chances just once and think they won't do that again, players aren't run by xG computer analysis, they're human beings.

    You have 12 points, United have 5. Its been and gone.

    Leceister (H)
    West Ham (A)
    Arsenal (H)
    Newcastle (A)

    Before the international break. xG would dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games. Logic would dictate around 8 points.
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.
  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.

    You put it exactly right there, the points on the table is the only thing that matters. I'm not gonna rely on Pepe/Auba bottling chances just once and think they won't do that again, players aren't run by xG computer analysis, they're human beings.

    You have 12 points, United have 5. Its been and gone.

    Leceister (H)
    West Ham (A)
    Arsenal (H)
    Newcastle (A)

    Before the international break. xG would dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games. Logic would dictate around 8 points.

    Lol you're just proving more and more that you don't understand xG. How can xG dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games when you can only measure xG after a game has taken place?

    Come back when you're more educated on the subject, please.
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.

    You put it exactly right there, the points on the table is the only thing that matters. I'm not gonna rely on Pepe/Auba bottling chances just once and think they won't do that again, players aren't run by xG computer analysis, they're human beings.

    You have 12 points, United have 5. Its been and gone.

    Leceister (H)
    West Ham (A)
    Arsenal (H)
    Newcastle (A)

    Before the international break. xG would dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games. Logic would dictate around 8 points.

    Lol you're just proving more and more that you don't understand xG. How can xG dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games when you can only measure xG after a game has taken place?

    Come back when you're more educated on the subject, please.

    Because from the first 4 games they're top of the xG charts, and the games in question are games they should be winning in, except Arsenal which you'd expect at least a draw at old trafford based on xG.

    I don't care about the subject enough, because in the grand scheme of things Its a load of rubbish. Bye little man.
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    Apollo wrote: »
    Strange how you're willing to spend far longer discussing a subject that you don't understand than the time it would actually take to read the article @SDoofus posted explaining it for you.

    Couldn't care less.
  • El_Nino
    3232 posts National Call-Up
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.
  • El_Nino
    3232 posts National Call-Up
    edited September 9
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    I just don’t get your point, if anything can happen at any monent, how do bookies consistently make money?
  • TakeItSlow
    7358 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    Whilst it was obviously a jab at your earlier comments, it was a genuine question too, if your only logic is ‘well anything can happen on the day’ why bother with better players ect, Messi could just miss a sitter on the day couldn’t he so what’s the point?
    You’ve completely rubbished a stat that tells you how likely things are to have happened, so surely you genuinely think it’s all down to luck?

    The word luck isn't one I'd use. Obviously better plays have a higher chance of not missing sitters etc. My point is simply that you do not know what's going to happen in 90% of premier league games unless you're Man City or Liverpool.

    Newcastle beating Spurs away for example just recently.
  • Apollo
    15084 posts World Class
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    Based on that logic, blindly sticking to a point of view, while refusing to read evidence despite multiple people trying to explain to you that you're wrong isn't adding anything to the conversation either. It's just wasting everyone's time while you remain uninformed of the matter being discussed.

    If you don't agree with it after, that's one thing, but you've literally proven in your discussion with @SDoofus and @El_Nino that you don't understand it.
  • El_Nino
    3232 posts National Call-Up
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    Whilst it was obviously a jab at your earlier comments, it was a genuine question too, if your only logic is ‘well anything can happen on the day’ why bother with better players ect, Messi could just miss a sitter on the day couldn’t he so what’s the point?
    You’ve completely rubbished a stat that tells you how likely things are to have happened, so surely you genuinely think it’s all down to luck?

    The word luck isn't one I'd use. Obviously better plays have a higher chance of not missing sitters etc. My point is simply that you do not know what's going to happen in 90% of premier league games unless you're Man City or Liverpool.

    Newcastle beating Spurs away for example just recently.

    The word luck is most certainly one you use.
    I’m not saying xG can help perfectly predict future results, literally no one is, what we’re trying to explain is it helps show a teams performance regardless of the result, your right key moments can go either way, that’s why stats like xG are so important in helping people to understand football deeper than just they lost 2-1 so they must be poop. It’s an indicator for how a team is doing and how they are likely to do in future; it isn’t something written in stone.
  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    Whilst it was obviously a jab at your earlier comments, it was a genuine question too, if your only logic is ‘well anything can happen on the day’ why bother with better players ect, Messi could just miss a sitter on the day couldn’t he so what’s the point?
    You’ve completely rubbished a stat that tells you how likely things are to have happened, so surely you genuinely think it’s all down to luck?

    The word luck isn't one I'd use. Obviously better plays have a higher chance of not missing sitters etc. My point is simply that you do not know what's going to happen in 90% of premier league games unless you're Man City or Liverpool.

    Newcastle beating Spurs away for example just recently.

    giphy.gif
  • Mike
    10006 posts Has That Special Something
    Isn’t Gomes like 5’2? No chance he’s making it at that height
  • arsenalap
    5229 posts Big Money Move
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.

    You put it exactly right there, the points on the table is the only thing that matters. I'm not gonna rely on Pepe/Auba bottling chances just once and think they won't do that again, players aren't run by xG computer analysis, they're human beings.

    You have 12 points, United have 5. Its been and gone.

    Leceister (H)
    West Ham (A)
    Arsenal (H)
    Newcastle (A)

    Before the international break. xG would dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games. Logic would dictate around 8 points.

    Lol you're just proving more and more that you don't understand xG. How can xG dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games when you can only measure xG after a game has taken place?

    Come back when you're more educated on the subject, please.

    Why dont you actually watch the games to see if teams deserve to win.

    We were slightly better than Newcastle, better than Burnley, and we should have beaten Spurs but got a draw. No stat will tell me otherwise, because I watched the games and I know what I saw.
  • MarkFromNorwich
    3095 posts National Call-Up
    Mike wrote: »
    Isn’t Gomes like 5’2? No chance he’s making it at that height

    Nah, he looks about 5"5 to me.

  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    EA_Andy wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    I just don’t think you understand, I don’t think @Apollo is harping on about how they’ve been robbed ect. They didn’t deserve to win because they didn’t score the goals, that much I agree with you on.

    But the point is that is a good indicator for future games, it’s backing up the current opinion of most United fans that there going in the right direction, not getting the results doesn’t mean there not improving.

    It is no indicator for future games because anything can happen in any game.

    So are you saying it’s just all luck?

    :sleeping: add something to the convo or don't post at all.

    Whilst it was obviously a jab at your earlier comments, it was a genuine question too, if your only logic is ‘well anything can happen on the day’ why bother with better players ect, Messi could just miss a sitter on the day couldn’t he so what’s the point?
    You’ve completely rubbished a stat that tells you how likely things are to have happened, so surely you genuinely think it’s all down to luck?

    The word luck isn't one I'd use. Obviously better plays have a higher chance of not missing sitters etc. My point is simply that you do not know what's going to happen in 90% of premier league games unless you're Man City or Liverpool.

    Newcastle beating Spurs away for example just recently.

    No-one that uses these stats actually think that you can correctly predict absolutely everything in the future. You're mostly trying to spot trends.

    The main point is it's a reflection of the performance and what would happen if the game was replayed or if they kept playing like that going forward.

    From what I can see the game you mentioned was 1.26xG v 0.51xG.

    So if the game was replayed over and over again Spurs would mostly win, but ultimately they didn't create many good chances and that would be an issue if they kept playing like that in the future.

    A lot of this was to do with Eriksen not being on the pitch for a large portion of the game. So there's always a bigger picture to look at, but again - lots of people heavily into stats will know this and don't blindly think that stats are everything.

    Exactly this.

    @TakeItSlow is just being deliberately obtuse, though, as usual.
  • LFC Simon 98
    17392 posts World Class
    Exp Goals is a very useful stat if you know how it works. For example that Spurs Newcastle game. Spurs had like 1.2 xpg (very low) meaning they basically only made 1 Chance you’d expect them to score (and they didn’t) Newcastle’s xpg was 0.7 which shows them just shy of 1 good chance but they took the half chance they got.

    It’s really not that hard
  • SDoofus
    5147 posts Big Money Move
    edited September 9
    arsenalap wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    @Doofus on the expected points table after the opening 4 games Liverpool sit at 7.69, United 9.32, City top with 10.11.

    Yet Liverpool have 12 points and you'd say they deserved all of those wins, correct? Shows how rubbish it is.

    Southampton missed a complete sitter and should have equalised against us, which would bring our points down to 10. The Arsenal game was probably the other one that had a bit of an impact, due to the sitters that Aubameyang and Pepe missed. You guys said it yourselves that if those had been scored, it could have been a very different result, and you were all buzzing about your performance that half. So yeah, the table could easily look very different right now, but thankfully, Ings bottled his chance, and Pepe and Aubameyang bottled theirs too, otherwise we'd have 7 or 8 points.

    You put it exactly right there, the points on the table is the only thing that matters. I'm not gonna rely on Pepe/Auba bottling chances just once and think they won't do that again, players aren't run by xG computer analysis, they're human beings.

    You have 12 points, United have 5. Its been and gone.

    Leceister (H)
    West Ham (A)
    Arsenal (H)
    Newcastle (A)

    Before the international break. xG would dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games. Logic would dictate around 8 points.

    Lol you're just proving more and more that you don't understand xG. How can xG dictate that they'll get 10/12 points from those games when you can only measure xG after a game has taken place?

    Come back when you're more educated on the subject, please.

    Why dont you actually watch the games to see if teams deserve to win.

    We were slightly better than Newcastle, better than Burnley, and we should have beaten Spurs but got a draw. No stat will tell me otherwise, because I watched the games and I know what I saw.

    xG and "who deserves to win" isn't always the same, though. You could have a game where one team is utterly dominating possession, but ultimately does not create many decent chances (common against bus parkers), whereas the opposition could counter attack themselves into a massive goal scoring chance just once or twice by fluke, and then their xG would be better than the team who actually dominated the ball/game.
  • Apollo
    15084 posts World Class
    edited September 9
    Quoted the wrong post
  • Ahmer50x
    18304 posts World Class


    Southgate backing Ole's decision to use Rashford at LF and Martial at ST.
  • UM4R
    3946 posts Moderator
    Wilson
    Keane (1&2)
    McNair
    Demi Mitchell
    Varela
    Fosu-Mensah
    Borthwick-Jackson
    Ro-Shaun Williams
    Blackett
    Januzaj
    Johnstone
    Ravel

    Just a list of names from the last 7 or 8 years who all looked promising but failed to make the grade at United.

    From the list, only the 3 in bold had genuine hype around them and people expected to be first-teamers

    the rest were potential prospects who could be decent options to have around the squad
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