Here’s why PES 2020 is better than any FIFA in the gameplay

Comments

  • D0lvl
    1867 posts Fans' Favourite
    Just saw this from

    In 35:50-36:20 PES is not immune from the awkward 180 kick/pass and first time shot.

  • Chubz
    3225 posts National Call-Up
    4. on the list is one of the biggest issues I have with this game...being a gamer it was one of the first things I noticed when I started FUT in 2015
  • Empyrium7
    2861 posts Fans' Favourite
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19
  • ILevis
    810 posts Semi-Pro
    edited July 30
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19

    Its the same for PES

    I tried out PES Lite a few months ago and went to the PES subreddit to look for some guides on the myclub gamemode. Literally 90% of the posts were people complaining how OP Mbappe, Aubameyang and other fast players were. They all moaned about how people would just play ultra defensive and just need to play one long pass down the wing for a save goal because defensive AI positioning was too bad. (They also had discussions about the forbidden thing over there, it was basically a carbon copy of the fifa subreddit)

    Every game will seem fun and balanced when you are just starting out. The more you play, the more you learn about cheap OP tactics, exploits and flaws of the game. Thats also the reason why everybody cites their first FIFA as the best FIFA ever, because back then they werent that good / invested and because of that didnt see/care much about the flaws in the game
  • D0lvl
    1867 posts Fans' Favourite
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19

    Exactly.

    I've experienced this many times. Opponent could be PTB and an OP auto block bounces the ball to one of his players who seem to precisely through ball to his ST while my defenders just watch the ball and not attempt to cut the passing the lane and only react after his ST touches the ball.

  • Empyrium7
    2861 posts Fans' Favourite
    edited July 30
    ILevis wrote: »
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19

    Its the same for PES

    I tried out PES Lite a few months ago and went to the PES subreddit to look for some guides on the myclub gamemode. Literally 90% of the posts were people complaining how OP Mbappe, Aubameyang and other fast players were. They all moaned about how people would just play ultra defensive and just need to play one long pass down the wing for a save goal because defensive AI positioning was too bad. (They also had discussions about the forbidden thing over there, it was basically a carbon copy of the fifa subreddit)

    Every game will seem fun and balanced when you are just starting out. The more you play, the more you learn about cheap OP tactics, exploits and flaws of the game. Thats also the reason why everybody cites their first FIFA as the best FIFA ever, because back then they werent that good / invested and because of that didnt see/care much about the flaws in the game

    Agreed.
    I'm not saying that PES is better. I grow up playing PES from 98 till 11. After that I couldn't play PES anymore, it felt out dated and the general physics felt wrong.

    Switched to FIFA and enjoyed 11-15. But after that EA started to add gimmicks and button combos like fighting games to execute unrealistic skill moves.

    After 19. I'm convinced that 20 won't be better. And I cant support a company that treats their customers like ****.

    Might give PES a try. But won't be playing FUT 20 for sure.
  • Ishibum
    13051 posts Has That Special Something
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    ILevis wrote: »
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19

    Its the same for PES

    I tried out PES Lite a few months ago and went to the PES subreddit to look for some guides on the myclub gamemode. Literally 90% of the posts were people complaining how OP Mbappe, Aubameyang and other fast players were. They all moaned about how people would just play ultra defensive and just need to play one long pass down the wing for a save goal because defensive AI positioning was too bad. (They also had discussions about the forbidden thing over there, it was basically a carbon copy of the fifa subreddit)

    Every game will seem fun and balanced when you are just starting out. The more you play, the more you learn about cheap OP tactics, exploits and flaws of the game. Thats also the reason why everybody cites their first FIFA as the best FIFA ever, because back then they werent that good / invested and because of that didnt see/care much about the flaws in the game

    Agreed.
    I'm not saying the PES is better. I grow up playing PES from 98 till 11. After that I couldn't play PES anymore, it felt out dated and the general physics felt wrong.

    Switched to FIFA and enjoyed 11-15. But after that EA started to add gimmicks and button combos like fighting games to execute unrealistic skill moves.

    After 19. I'm convinced that 20 won't be better. And I cant support a company that treats their customers like ****.

    Might give PES a try. But won't be playing FUT 20 for sure.

    Throw in the PES netcode being an issue for me back in 2009 and this is my exact take.
  • Empyrium7
    2861 posts Fans' Favourite
    D0lvl wrote: »
    Empyrium7 wrote: »
    D0lvl wrote: »
    In fifa 19, there really isn't an incentive to just 'clear out' the ball i.e. just dumping it back to the midfield or just kicking the ball away if deep inside the penalty box or there is a high scoring chance from the opponent.

    Let's say your on defense and you get possession of the ball. You have no good passing options. You can literally 'hail mary' kick the ball (lob or through ball) to a stay forward striker and chances are good that this teammate is available and will receive the pass because the ball is still on 'rails' going from point a to point b.

    In PES, a hail mary pass would be seem erratic and the ball would probably just go out of bounds, turnover, but definitely a low chance of making it to a teammate conveniently waiting for the counter attack.

    I hate when I'm dominating and pressuring my opponent, and then an auto tackle out of nowhere, then one blind laser driven pass through my players from his VVD lands to his ST feet with no trouble.
    then one two's fest to end with a blind 180 degree first time shot. and you are 1 goal behind
    rinse and repeat. this is FIFA 19

    Exactly.

    I've experienced this many times. Opponent could be PTB and an OP auto block bounces the ball to one of his players who seem to precisely through ball to his ST while my defenders just watch the ball and not attempt to cut the passing the lane and only react after his ST touches the ball.

    You are right. Defenders should react faster to these stupid blind passes.
    Passing assistance is so annoying this FIFA. Noobs can blind tiki taka you while your players just watching.
  • apoelfc
    115 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Tried PES 2020 demo and no thanks... Still prefer FIFA by far even though it has some issues in gameplay..Hoping that FIFA 20 will be better..!
  • Paquetesousa
    2079 posts Fans' Favourite
    selb wrote: »
    When you get online, in the full game you'll still come across some stupid mechanics that people have found a way to abuse, laggy games etc. Will be different bs to FIFA but still bs

    Amen! Lol last year I bought pes when it came out and it was wonderful until all the exploits started to become apparent. It has it’s dose of scripting / balancing as well. By the time it was out for a week, the only thing it did was making me excited for fifa 19, which was unthinkable, considering how poor fifa 18 was...
  • Pablofsi08
    457 posts Sunday League Hero
    ALU2 wrote: »
    1, no ping pong pass,

    This is actually bad for game flow and depth, because by eliminating this you eliminate a style of passing and a speed of passing, and that reduces depth.

    player need to manually control the power of pass

    This is actually a fail on design from Konami. Makes it counter intuitive to create plays when you gotta be thinking about this factor and not where your player is going to lean towards when he receives the ball, where he's going to move it to to create space, where the next pass should go, etc. I hate that about PES.
    2, no OP skill move abuse, just like real football, the best weapon to kill your opponent is run and pass, football is a teamwork not one man show, remember Tekkex 4 elastic SM in a row and score in the Fifa tournament? Totally insult to football

    Again, broken skills such as la croqueta and el tornado are on the extreme of too useful skills that need to be corrected, but you propose the opposite extreme which is erroneous too, making skills way more useless, which dumbs down the metagame.
    3, no OP first time shot/fitness shot mechanics from impossible angle to score

    Agreed, nothing to say about this one.
    the shoot in PES just feel real, way less exploits than FIFA, in FIFA you have to abuse mechanics to score no matter how ridiculous the occasion is, but you can’t score when you are just 5 meters out of the target

    Wrong and wrong. You can display skill on Fifa to score too, and your second sentence is simply false.
    4, you get reward as you play better, your player don’t go bronze in a sudden, you have responsive control on your defender, they can defend as the way you wish

    I partly agree on this one with you but making defenders not have any recovery would bring us back to when the defending AI was unbeatable and you just needed to press X + L2 + R2 and you had a perfect bus (which I assume works the same on PES, which is a design error). Fifa has however, a big issue with defenders' positioning where the game tries to open up your defense and punishes your defenders enough so that less skilled people can score more easily against more experienced players, that needs to change and soon.
    5,better physic impact implementation, it’s just more real than FIFA, I will say it’s the biggest impression for me from the demo, you don’t see any part of player can get through by a hand, leg, head or ball, when 2 player got a impact just like 2 player got a impact in real life, ball bounces as real, in Fifa, ball always oddly stop bouncing as long as it has a impact with player, disobey the rule of physics, then all the disgusted rebound keep happening

    If it works like that on PES I applaud it, but I doubt it. Yes Fifa has a huge issue with this.
    6, better animation, every single move, from run, pass and shoot, just feel smooth and spot on, when you are using Messi you can feel it’s Messi, remember the way Messi runs in FIFA 19? Hilarious. And in Fifa, everything is focus on fast pace, animation is literally simplified and lessened, feels robotic and unreal

    I agree with the Messi part but not the rest.
    FIFA has its good, the license advantage give it better presentation, better graphic on the surroundings, more real face in the game, but I think player face looked more real in PES than EA, anyway, if you like play football game like in real life, you really need to give PES a try, at least try the Demo

    Completely disagree. Players look way more polished and close to their faces in reality on Fifa.
  • JURITO1000
    1662 posts Play-Off Hero
    I played 4 games online now in PES 2020 and i must say ,its rubbish. I hate fifa,i broke the disc few weeks ago so im not a fifa fan.

    I wish i could say that pes is amazing but its just not. I dont have problem with slow gameplay,its alright. But the defending is bad,my AI player sometimes did the tackle when he was close and sometimes no,i was pressing tackle and nothing happened. Becquse the game is slow,sliding tackles are very effective,one guy was doing it all time and he touched the ball almost always or i didnt have time to pass.

    I dont know,maybe just need to use to it but i didnt like it
  • selb
    6816 posts Big Money Move
    Question for anyone who has played it, does it still do the homing missile tackle where you press A(xbox)X(ps) it just homes in and runs straight at the opponent?
  • joehuk
    3453 posts National Call-Up
    edited July 30
    i'll give me verdict on PES2020.

    Same as previous 'NEW' Gen PES for me.

    start with negatives:

    Poor animations - feels so clunky, slow, ball control seems off.
    poor body visuals - everyone looks fat.
    poor shooting - Feels way to slow.
    game doesn't feel fluid.
    nets look awful.
    Same poor menus.
    GK's - Still dive like they have bricks on their feet.


    Positives
    Passing - More life like
    Pace - More life like
    tactics - gives you a lot more options if you can overcome the dreadful menus.

    other than that I will NOT be buying PES 2020.

    I was an avid Pro evo up until PES6 on the 360. since then it has just not captured a football game how I'd like.

    p.s Juve have made a massive mistake, pes will not have the longevity like FIFA as much as we all hate FIFA most of the time, it still has millions playing throughout the year.
  • ViezeDries
    844 posts Semi-Pro
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    ALU2 wrote: »
    1, no ping pong pass,

    This is actually bad for game flow and depth, because by eliminating this you eliminate a style of passing and a speed of passing, and that reduces depth.

    player need to manually control the power of pass

    This is actually a fail on design from Konami. Makes it counter intuitive to create plays when you gotta be thinking about this factor and not where your player is going to lean towards when he receives the ball, where he's going to move it to to create space, where the next pass should go, etc. I hate that about PES.
    2, no OP skill move abuse, just like real football, the best weapon to kill your opponent is run and pass, football is a teamwork not one man show, remember Tekkex 4 elastic SM in a row and score in the Fifa tournament? Totally insult to football

    Again, broken skills such as la croqueta and el tornado are on the extreme of too useful skills that need to be corrected, but you propose the opposite extreme which is erroneous too, making skills way more useless, which dumbs down the metagame.
    3, no OP first time shot/fitness shot mechanics from impossible angle to score

    Agreed, nothing to say about this one.
    the shoot in PES just feel real, way less exploits than FIFA, in FIFA you have to abuse mechanics to score no matter how ridiculous the occasion is, but you can’t score when you are just 5 meters out of the target

    Wrong and wrong. You can display skill on Fifa to score too, and your second sentence is simply false.
    4, you get reward as you play better, your player don’t go bronze in a sudden, you have responsive control on your defender, they can defend as the way you wish

    I partly agree on this one with you but making defenders not have any recovery would bring us back to when the defending AI was unbeatable and you just needed to press X + L2 + R2 and you had a perfect bus (which I assume works the same on PES, which is a design error). Fifa has however, a big issue with defenders' positioning where the game tries to open up your defense and punishes your defenders enough so that less skilled people can score more easily against more experienced players, that needs to change and soon.
    5,better physic impact implementation, it’s just more real than FIFA, I will say it’s the biggest impression for me from the demo, you don’t see any part of player can get through by a hand, leg, head or ball, when 2 player got a impact just like 2 player got a impact in real life, ball bounces as real, in Fifa, ball always oddly stop bouncing as long as it has a impact with player, disobey the rule of physics, then all the disgusted rebound keep happening

    If it works like that on PES I applaud it, but I doubt it. Yes Fifa has a huge issue with this.
    6, better animation, every single move, from run, pass and shoot, just feel smooth and spot on, when you are using Messi you can feel it’s Messi, remember the way Messi runs in FIFA 19? Hilarious. And in Fifa, everything is focus on fast pace, animation is literally simplified and lessened, feels robotic and unreal

    I agree with the Messi part but not the rest.
    FIFA has its good, the license advantage give it better presentation, better graphic on the surroundings, more real face in the game, but I think player face looked more real in PES than EA, anyway, if you like play football game like in real life, you really need to give PES a try, at least try the Demo

    Completely disagree. Players look way more polished and close to their faces in reality on Fifa.

    Schooled, Alu!
  • Boysie91
    9170 posts Has That Special Something
    From playing the demo for a few games I can already see PES still doesn't work online. I only ever play PES against the computer.
  • Pablofsi08
    457 posts Sunday League Hero
    Hey, Fifa's menus aren't hot either anymore eh?
  • leon1309
    4208 posts National Call-Up
    edited July 30
    Ishibum wrote: »
    Recoba wrote: »
    Ishibum wrote: »
    Do you work for Konami?

    No. He knows a thing or two about football.

    I wonder if you ever played or watched a football game making a comment like that.

    There's a distinct lack of balance though. No mention of the awful lag that folk have experienced in previous versions or the fact it can take 5-10 mins to find a game (and then be matched up against someone the other side of the world).

    Also, this is pretty much the forum equivalent of doorstepping. I'm aware the game exists and that there's a demo. I don't need someone evangelising it though, or casting aspersions on my own football knowledge when I raise doubts (pro tip: not how you win friends).

    And I write all this as someone who is not planning on buying '20.

    Hardly any lag in cca 300 games played till i think march this year, when i gave FIFA another run...and i usuallly dont really wait for online matches, but i am in EU, i hear Northern America is whole other matter.

    The gripe i have with pes, is the implementation of certain things that do not belong in online competitive game and can not be mentioned here (they learned some things from EA sadly).

    One more thing pes graphic are not nearly bad, as some of you here countiniously claim....i am starting to wonder if any of you actually played the game. I mean it has some issues, but different ones that are countiniously mentioned on FIFA forums.
  • Retro_G
    30488 posts National Team Captain
    Boysie91 wrote: »
    From playing the demo for a few games I can already see PES still doesn't work online. I only ever play PES against the computer.

    It works great online, if you change the matchmaking settings to require stable internet. Now you will need to use an ethernet cable for this setting to work, make sure your connection is good. The majority of my games have felt like offline. Balanced setting is awful though, it's a lagfest.
  • Mr_footballer1
    1912 posts Play-Off Hero
    The problem is you need to play a football game a lot before you can give it a fair opinion. Even new games in the same franchise feel weird at first.
  • JURITO1000
    1662 posts Play-Off Hero
    I hate how in pes my players doesnt run for loose ball. He just stay and watching and i cant go for thr ball because its slow. Maybe there is some button for it but i didnt find in commands
  • Boysie91
    9170 posts Has That Special Something
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Boysie91 wrote: »
    From playing the demo for a few games I can already see PES still doesn't work online. I only ever play PES against the computer.

    It works great online, if you change the matchmaking settings to require stable internet. Now you will need to use an ethernet cable for this setting to work, make sure your connection is good. The majority of my games have felt like offline. Balanced setting is awful though, it's a lagfest.

    I have done all that and I have a stable connection but I still get opponents moving quicker and less stiff then me I have found.
  • BorussenBernie09
    1577 posts Play-Off Hero
    edited July 30
    ALU2 wrote: »
    Do you have stocks in PES?

    The hell you're doing on a FIFA forum if you're such a fanboy? Didn't you get bashed enough on your earlier post?
    You're like one of those guys on the streets who try to sell you their religion.

    I'm fine with the one i have thankyouverymuch.

    Really, I’m forcing you to buy my religion? Every issue I point out from FIFA is my fantasy?

    No you're just opening one post after another telling us how great PES is.

    How's that different from a guy who stops you on the streets telling you how awesome God is and how relieved you will be if you accept Jesus Christ (PES) as your savior?

    Good Comparison, not far fetched at all ;)

    BTT:

    PES is good, the My Club Mode is decent but one fact kills the whole Game for me:

    Because less people playing PES after 3 Months, Matchmaking takes ages to find you an opponent. Has been an issue in PES18, PES19 and will be the same problem in 20.

    What forces people to leave PES is the Lack of content.

    I'm writing this, not being a FIFA Fanboy at all. I really hope from year to year, that PES kills FIFA...but Konami just can't get it done.
  • Pablofsi08
    457 posts Sunday League Hero
    I can stay 5 minutes looking for a match but is it actually playable? I mean if I stay all that time I want to connect through P2P direct connection, not servers, to someone at 15ms and I don't think PES has that amount of users.
  • Pocketsquareguy
    5915 posts Big Money Move
    edited July 30
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    I can stay 5 minutes looking for a match but is it actually playable? I mean if I stay all that time I want to connect through P2P direct connection, not servers, to someone at 15ms and I don't think PES has that amount of users.

    PES has connection filters. Three settings. Setting one will match you up with anyone. Setting two is balanced, it will filter out the bad connections. Then setting three is only good connections. You have to be hardwired to use setting 3.
  • BeardGang
    1769 posts Fans' Favourite
    Anyone who thinks that pes demo is good is a potato. Worst thing I’ve ever played Jesus christ
  • Pablofsi08
    457 posts Sunday League Hero
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    I can stay 5 minutes looking for a match but is it actually playable? I mean if I stay all that time I want to connect through P2P direct connection, not servers, to someone at 15ms and I don't think PES has that amount of users.

    PES has connection filters. Three settings. Setting one will match you up with anyone. Setting two is balanced, it will filter out the bad connections. Then setting three is only good connections. You have to be hardwired to use setting 3.

    What does good connections mean though, low latency? stable connection? both things are completely different.
  • Shshj
    4289 posts National Call-Up
    Boysie91 wrote: »
    From playing the demo for a few games I can already see PES still doesn't work online. I only ever play PES against the computer.

    This.

    MyClub is the same as FUT after a while. People exploit the overpowered mechanics, after a few games you catch on and the gameplay isn't as enjoyable. Everyone uses the same meta players, it's just the way it works.

    PES is great offline though, I find the gameplay to be far more enjoyable and realistic compared to FIFA. It's a shame Konami seems to have gone down the E-Sports rabbit hole because Master League has serious potential.
  • cjonesdnb
    138 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    I can definitely hand it to Konami for what they offer w PES as Im making the assumption they have a significantly smaller budget to work with. I truly want to love their game but it just seems to lack the polish I find with FIFA. A big part of it for me is the immersion. With PES19 the menus were unspeakable, the pitch was always the same and looked flat and one dimensional to me. The announcing was 3rd rate and I never felt the intensity of the crowd and atmosphere in the stadium like I feel w FIFA. I do appreciate having 2 game options for the sport as I think the competition is healthy and is better for the consumer. I really hope PES is around for a while and can hire someone that can steer the development to continue to polish the product
  • Massito2727
    95 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    LMAO, PES is robot-football

    2020 has pink in menu and deformed bodies
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