PITCH NOTES | UPDATE ON FIFA GAMEPLAY RESPONSIVENESS EFFORTS

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  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    Somehow this week DR is kind of phantastic for me here. Aside from that massive delay that happens after a game pause I haven't had an unplayable game in 2 days..

    That's kind of unheard of at my home.. thay being said.. I'm 99% certain WL will be a big mess again..
  • b00st88ch
    57 posts Park Captain
    For me it's still unplayable DR rant smooth something but with 2-3sec Delay and WL rant for 25 of 30 Games slow like 30-40fps not 60fps with also same Delay. Im reached 2000 Games now on PS4 at the end there are around 200 Games were playable and 50 Games were very good and fun how it should be the rest DR&WL unplayable. For a little indication my gameplay is like from Youtuber and Pro Player KRASI it's identical. I hope I can play Fifa20 without such a big amount of rage like it was this year. I also train to reach someday the Globals in Fifa18 I was very close to didn't it but to late at the end. In Fifa19 was it still impossible under this conditions really sad that all my amount of time doesn't matter and had no effect.
  • Littleland95
    16692 posts Moderator
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  • tworaf
    215 posts Sunday League Hero
    the change they rolled back is the maximum buffer amount before the game allowed to resend data. it's basically lag compensation. Now we are back to the same delayed gameplay because of my opponent internet quality...
  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    tworaf wrote: »
    the change they rolled back is the maximum buffer amount before the game allowed to resend data. it's basically lag compensation. Now we are back to the same delayed gameplay because of my opponent internet quality...

    I know that was one of the things they changed in the last update, but where do you get the info from that this is what they rolled back? Educated guess or is there any actual info somewhere?
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited July 24
    Server based netcode is so primitive you are embarrassing yourselves every week trying to make it work EA, just drop it, and move from 90s to at least 2000s technology. This maximum buffer jazz is just... I feel for you. Bring some real, palpable changes like removing the third party between my connection and my rival's, THAT will change the delay people complain about. The third party is unnecessary.

    bberger well, I think that's pretty much all they did that was different from last time's patch. They just keep on saying something general like we have made changes to our 90s netcode to improve responsiveness, this time they actually referred punctually to a change and it, and it cannot turn out to be anything else, turned out to be a sad attempt.

    Sorry to be harsh with my tone EA, but that's the only way your higher ups will see the tremendous error your network department has made.
  • b00st88ch
    57 posts Park Captain
    One thing that would be really nice is when they upgrade the tickrate for the servers... I can show you some nice tickrates when I connect to the DR&WL Servers it's below 20hz so no wonder at all. Wait when Im back at home i post here a picture of a normal connection from Basel (CH) to Frankfurt (DE) in DR. If my account will get banned you know why haha xD
  • Well.. it was fun whilst it lasted but the gameplay is back to being slow and delayed. My players feel like they are running in mud. Least with whatever it is they disabled my players felt responsive.
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    No change made to refresh/tick rates is going to reflect on more than 1, a max of 2 input delay animation frames being reduced.
  • MartinKusev
    38 posts Last Pick at the Park
    They won't return P2P (I've sent 3 messages to Santa to bring it back)... With third party they can manipulate the game play in real time (There are 6+ types of bad game play like InceptionXx said). Their secret is that every fifa player have to think his team needs upgrade. Everything is about fifa points now. It's a good trick to make money, but it's unethical!
  • b00st88ch
    57 posts Park Captain
    @Pablofsi Im not so the IT-Nerd but isn't that true here:

    Tick rate is the frequency with which the server updates the game state. This is measured in Hertz. When a server has a tick rate of 64, it means that it is capable of sending packets to clients at most 64 times per second. These packets contain updates to the game state, including things like player and object locations. The length of a tick is just its duration in milliseconds. For example, 64 tick would be 15.6ms, 20 tick would be 50ms, 10 tick 100ms, etc.

    So in my case most of the games are under 10tickrate sometimes 12-15tickrate.

    But you can't just fix the tickrate the updaterate from the client & Lag Compensation should be new created from a netcode.
  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    edited July 26
    b00st88ch wrote: »
    @Pablofsi Im not so the IT-Nerd but isn't that true here:

    Tick rate is the frequency with which the server updates the game state. This is measured in Hertz. When a server has a tick rate of 64, it means that it is capable of sending packets to clients at most 64 times per second. These packets contain updates to the game state, including things like player and object locations. The length of a tick is just its duration in milliseconds. For example, 64 tick would be 15.6ms, 20 tick would be 50ms, 10 tick 100ms, etc.

    So in my case most of the games are under 10tickrate sometimes 12-15tickrate.

    But you can't just fix the tickrate the updaterate from the client & Lag Compensation should be new created from a netcode.
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    No change made to refresh/tick rates is going to reflect on more than 1, a max of 2 input delay animation frames being reduced.

    This is part of the problem though (at least in their current state of servers, netcode and game).

    Added to that - I'm pretty sure that additionally to the aforementioned stuff, the game's internal processing (gameplay/physics engine) isn't decoupled from their graphics engine. At least before all this servers crap this was a major issue with their p2p netcode and I'm pretty sure that is the same reason why we see speedup lag rather than teleporting.

    So add the issues above to that, we have PS4 pro consoles running on 30Hz at some times in 4k which surely adds to some syncing issues, same as pausing or tactical changes.

    Stuff like this were major problems especially with racing games until the mid 2000s. Simracing online then drastically changed to the better when companies moved all the physics stuff and netcode stuff in different threads and processing loops.

    Not sure if they fixed this in Frostbite, but in Ignite and before I'm almost dead certain that was the case.

    Problem with that is though: it isn't easily fixable. If **** is that tightly coupled to their core engine, refactoring isn't gonna cut it. You'd need to rewrite major parts of the whole engine which in how Frostbite seems to be engineered is simply not possible from an economical standpoint as it would affect soo many things - and nit just in FIFA..
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    They won't return P2P (I've sent 3 messages to Santa to bring it back)... With third party they can manipulate the game play in real time (There are 6+ types of bad game play like InceptionXx said). Their secret is that every fifa player have to think his team needs upgrade. Everything is about fifa points now. It's a good trick to make money, but it's unethical!

    DDOS attacks require way more computers than just a single one. Most Fifa players, even wanting to engage in actively attacking others, would not have the required resources to do it, so the wide majority of the userbase cannot execute these attacks. We are talking about specific cases of people who need to be dealt with (DDOS kiddies that somehow got access to multiple infected computers, people who hire DDOS "platforms" which by the way aren't cheap) which are a total minority. These people need to be dealt with by they ISPs, sued, their subscriptions immediately terminated, everything, but this is not EA's fault and they must not take responsibility for it or do anything. Perhaps receive the complaint coming from the ISPs and system ban/terminate all of the attacker's accounts on all EA games and sue them too after report from the ISP. This is what they should do, not load us all with enormous amounts of delay, making the game unplayable for a very, very, very, huge, ample scale of users, destroying the game's reputation making people think there's momentum and handicap, and that EA's servers are crap. They may be but that's not the main issue, but the servers modell itself.

    You must mean DoS attacks. Well, those need to be mitigated through another disciplinary principle: disconnecting the attacker who is already lagging by sending an excess of data packets to his rival. The attacker always lags way more and first before his victim. The game can detect this simplys as a person who is having a huge bandwidth usage over a certain limit and disconnect him. This can be included in the P2P netcode. Another solution: disconnect both players and call it a draw if the attacker was winning (no penalization for any of them) or a win if the person who started to lag was losing. This is included already as the natural definition of matches when one of the players disconnects so it would just be a re-implementation. A reconnect, plus a report a player feature (through replays) can be included for matches where a disconnection happens in a weird way like this, further increasing the fear on attackers that their accounts may be compromised if they dare to try to do it.

    The last solution and I think the best there could be, but hardest, is that EA develops a new P2P netcode that somehow still masks your IP to attackers. Just speculation but it sure would be ideal.

    We have come to a break point in this time. The current servers model has reached a point where too many people are complaining about awful servers and 1, 2, 3, 5 seconds delay, and something needs to be done to modify this situation or the game is going to suffer more and more in front of Fornite for example, which just reduced input delay by 25ms -on a battle royale game- through a very well developed solution for the model they are forced to use since it is a 100 guys game playing all at the same time at the beginning, so they are forced on servers.

    EA isn't forced, and that should a huge advantage to them but they are not taking it. This game could have WAAAAAAY less delay if they make P2P viable security-wise (because in all other departments it already slaps servers left and right) and confront Fortnite with a much better online gameplay with close to offline input delay for the majority of users, because it is a 1v1 game.
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    b00st88ch wrote: »
    @Pablofsi Im not so the IT-Nerd but isn't that true here:

    Tick rate is the frequency with which the server updates the game state. This is measured in Hertz. When a server has a tick rate of 64, it means that it is capable of sending packets to clients at most 64 times per second. These packets contain updates to the game state, including things like player and object locations. The length of a tick is just its duration in milliseconds. For example, 64 tick would be 15.6ms, 20 tick would be 50ms, 10 tick 100ms, etc.

    So in my case most of the games are under 10tickrate sometimes 12-15tickrate.

    But you can't just fix the tickrate the updaterate from the client & Lag Compensation should be new created from a netcode.

    Yes but it's not as hard to change if we talk about typing, however it does present a lot of challenges because of the interaction with other factors. That is another reason why the servers model has no place in a sports 1v1 game, the difficulty of removing some of the extra delay it introduces with these rates over the already double input delay we get from the data going then coming back, the extra hop. We are talking about Fifa adding an extra 50-100ms over your already suffering 250ms to far away at a distant country latency on servers, versus 5, 10, 15ms latency on Peer to Peer provided matchmaking is tweaked to work based on finding players with the lowest latency to you. Not country or distance based, because many times living in a country next to where the servers are doesn't necessarily mean your data will hop right to it. It can go a full circle around it before it finally enters that country, further increasing latency, and this is a factor created by using servers instead of P2P.
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited July 26
    bberger wrote: »
    b00st88ch wrote: »
    @Pablofsi Im not so the IT-Nerd but isn't that true here:

    Tick rate is the frequency with which the server updates the game state. This is measured in Hertz. When a server has a tick rate of 64, it means that it is capable of sending packets to clients at most 64 times per second. These packets contain updates to the game state, including things like player and object locations. The length of a tick is just its duration in milliseconds. For example, 64 tick would be 15.6ms, 20 tick would be 50ms, 10 tick 100ms, etc.

    So in my case most of the games are under 10tickrate sometimes 12-15tickrate.

    But you can't just fix the tickrate the updaterate from the client & Lag Compensation should be new created from a netcode.
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    No change made to refresh/tick rates is going to reflect on more than 1, a max of 2 input delay animation frames being reduced.

    This is part of the problem though (at least in their current state of servers, netcode and game).

    Added to that - I'm pretty sure that additionally to the aforementioned stuff, the game's internal processing (gameplay/physics engine) isn't decoupled from their graphics engine. At least before all this servers crap this was a major issue with their p2p netcode and I'm pretty sure that is the same reason why we see speedup lag rather than teleporting.

    So add the issues above to that, we have PS4 pro consoles running on 30Hz at some times in 4k which surely adds to some syncing issues, same as pausing or tactical changes.

    Stuff like this were major problems especially with racing games until the mid 2000s. Simracing online then drastically changed to the better when companies moved all the physics stuff and netcode stuff in different threads and processing loops.

    Not sure if they fixed this in Frostbite, but in Ignite and before I'm almost dead certain that was the case.

    Problem with that is though: it isn't easily fixable. If **** is that tightly coupled to their core engine, refactoring isn't gonna cut it. You'd need to rewrite major parts of the whole engine which in how Frostbite seems to be engineered is simply not possible from an economical standpoint as it would affect soo many things - and nit just in FIFA..

    Exactly.

    Take a look at this page about Frosbite's failure to compete with Epic Games' to become the standard: https://www.usgamer.net/articles/ea-frostbite-engine-history-bioware-ea-sports

    I am sure they are not going to move from Frostbite so long as Epic Games keeps on asking for 5% off game sales, which is absolutely draconian if you ask me. So the changes need to be made on their engine.

    My issue with this is: it's not so hard to make immediate changes such as allowing an option, at the user's risk, to play under P2P. Fifa already uses P2P on Single Matches. Not really sure about Fut Draft here. Used to have it on FUT Seasons as well. It's up to the developers to take on the challenge and for higher ups to see the potential of dramatically decreasing input delay to very acceptable levels by, at least, making the option viable. No need to just flip one model for the other.

    All those three modes felt so good to play when both players had a normal connection back in Fifa 17/18.
  • MartinKusev
    38 posts Last Pick at the Park
    edited July 28
    Pablofsi08 wrote: »
    They won't return P2P (I've sent 3 messages to Santa to bring it back)... With third party they can manipulate the game play in real time (There are 6+ types of bad game play like InceptionXx said). Their secret is that every fifa player have to think his team needs upgrade. Everything is about fifa points now. It's a good trick to make money, but it's unethical!

    DDOS attacks require way more computers than just a single one. Most Fifa players, even wanting to engage in actively attacking others, would not have the required resources to do it, so the wide majority of the userbase cannot execute these attacks. We are talking about specific cases of people who need to be dealt with (DDOS kiddies that somehow got access to multiple infected computers, people who hire DDOS "platforms" which by the way aren't cheap) which are a total minority. These people need to be dealt with by they ISPs, sued, their subscriptions immediately terminated, everything, but this is not EA's fault and they must not take responsibility for it or do anything. Perhaps receive the complaint coming from the ISPs and system ban/terminate all of the attacker's accounts on all EA games and sue them too after report from the ISP. This is what they should do, not load us all with enormous amounts of delay, making the game unplayable for a very, very, very, huge, ample scale of users, destroying the game's reputation making people think there's momentum and handicap, and that EA's servers are crap. They may be but that's not the main issue, but the servers modell itself.

    You must mean DoS attacks. Well, those need to be mitigated through another disciplinary principle: disconnecting the attacker who is already lagging by sending an excess of data packets to his rival. The attacker always lags way more and first before his victim. The game can detect this simplys as a person who is having a huge bandwidth usage over a certain limit and disconnect him. This can be included in the P2P netcode. Another solution: disconnect both players and call it a draw if the attacker was winning (no penalization for any of them) or a win if the person who started to lag was losing. This is included already as the natural definition of matches when one of the players disconnects so it would just be a re-implementation. A reconnect, plus a report a player feature (through replays) can be included for matches where a disconnection happens in a weird way like this, further increasing the fear on attackers that their accounts may be compromised if they dare to try to do it.

    The last solution and I think the best there could be, but hardest, is that EA develops a new P2P netcode that somehow still masks your IP to attackers. Just speculation but it sure would be ideal.

    We have come to a break point in this time. The current servers model has reached a point where too many people are complaining about awful servers and 1, 2, 3, 5 seconds delay, and something needs to be done to modify this situation or the game is going to suffer more and more in front of Fornite for example, which just reduced input delay by 25ms -on a battle royale game- through a very well developed solution for the model they are forced to use since it is a 100 guys game playing all at the same time at the beginning, so they are forced on servers.

    EA isn't forced, and that should a huge advantage to them but they are not taking it. This game could have WAAAAAAY less delay if they make P2P viable security-wise (because in all other departments it already slaps servers left and right) and confront Fortnite with a much better online gameplay with close to offline input delay for the majority of users, because it is a 1v1 game.

    Thank you for the answer, @Pablofsi08 :) I know EA didn't use the best network technologie for their online modes, but bro, the same **** happens in offline modes. The same delay, same unresponsivness and mud gameplay like in WL! My favourite pattern. I have 100-130 ms delay and my opponent scores 2 stupid goals from rebounds or through my legs, because i can't move my players. Second half i don't have any delay but his AI starts playing like on ultimate difficulty. Now i have to show how good im with good responsivness agents god AI, but my opponent have massive lag second half. This scenario happened vice versa (i got lead with two awful goals without delay and second half - welcome to the mud). This stupid scenario happens in kick off when we play 2 legs or in career mode for some cup game! So if its just the servers and network technologies, how this **** gameplay is in offlinemodes?
  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    Because they also send continuous data in offline modes and additionally to the broken netcode the whole Frodtbite engine is broken and rotten to the core..
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    I personally never felt any extra input delay on Squad Battles or any mode against the AI to be fair, except maybe the one we don't notice that might already be built into the game when playing any FUT mode (geniuses who work at network dpts. usually add in EVEN MORE delay on top of aaaaaall the unbearable delay we already get from their genius netcode models, from TVs/monitors, from controller refresh rates, from wireless, from Wi-Fi, from latency, from extra hops, from peak hours delay, from ISP lag, God) to "balance the feeling for everyone" regardless of your latency. That kind of nonsense, careless about the final delay the user gets, caring only about supposedly correct methodologies, are this game's problem.
  • tworaf
    215 posts Sunday League Hero
    We also need servers in belguim or italia for europe. the current servers are all next to each other: frankfurt, amesterdam and ireland...

    The mathmaking should favore low latency, if I have 4 bars (less than 75ms ping more than 50ms) match me with someone who have 4 bars to servers too. its really bad getting matched with people with bad latency and suffering major lag compensation delay because of it!

    they wont bring back p2p, its not the solution. last year online seasons were on p2p and it was lagging too. most of the players play on shared long distance wifi.
  • b00st88ch
    57 posts Park Captain
    At the end it should have a netcode like any other "ESPORTS" title so far. The guy who has the better internet should have less latency = fast,smooth responsive Gameplay. And not a broken Lag Compensation Code or any kind of this Compansation. Less Delay, less frustration = more fun no matter how hard the AI is.

    ONE POINT which makes me very angry atm is EA talk about everything for Fifa20 Gameplay Changes etc. but did anybody see 1 sentence about IT-Infrastructure or the server problem?

    Idk it's marketing or so to avoid to talk about one of the 3 biggest problems that Fifa has...

    If EA don't drop any news about tt in the next 3-4 weeks you know they don't change anything for Fifa20.
  • Pablofsi08
    393 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited July 29
    tworaf wrote: »
    We also need servers in belguim or italia for europe. the current servers are all next to each other: frankfurt, amesterdam and ireland...

    The mathmaking should favore low latency, if I have 4 bars (less than 75ms ping more than 50ms) match me with someone who have 4 bars to servers too. its really bad getting matched with people with bad latency and suffering major lag compensation delay because of it!

    they wont bring back p2p, its not the solution. last year online seasons were on p2p and it was lagging too. most of the players play on shared long distance wifi.

    They have to bring P2P back, it's the best choice for everyone. People's lack of ability to optimize their connections is their own fault and it's fair for them to suffer until they get informed and act to improve it, the entirety of the userbase must not receive a netcode with a sub-standard take on input latency for 1v1 sports games, for no reason actually. Because as people have lag on P2P they will lag servers too. And they do, look at how many people complain about their opponents having such a bad latency to the servers, and how they still lag on purpose.

    I am proposing P2P as an additional option at our disposal and risk, not a replacement of the servers model.

    Give me Wi-fi on P2P at 15ms any day instead of 150ms on servers.
  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    They also really need to add a filter option like PES (or any other good eSports title for that matter).

    In PES you can filter out unstable connections (WiFi for example) completely, leave it on a 'balanced' setting (as long as it's good you can match up against them) and also turn off the filter completely.

    How this isn't in FIFA is beyond me..
  • I still don't understand why they rolled back the update. I can't play this **** after the smoothness I enjoyed for 5 days when the update was fully on. the gameplay is so bad now. the button delay, the way the ball bounces back, the lag compensation and the one sided advantage... my players are freaking dumb with this **** delay. always slow to react to everything. I wish they never made this update. atleast I never knew what a smooth onine fifa match is. now all I can do is slowly stop playing this addictive game and not preordering fifa 20 :)
  • bberger
    5163 posts Big Money Move
    @EA_Andy where are the pitch nites to your latest responsiveness efforts promised in the release notes of the latest patch? Can't find any..
  • tworaf
    215 posts Sunday League Hero
    bberger wrote: »
    @EA_Andy where are the pitch nites to your latest responsiveness efforts promised in the release notes of the latest patch? Can't find any..

    you wont find any, idk what they tested yesterday and it was rolled back today 🤣
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