Manchester United Football Club

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  • Apollo
    20504 posts Club Captain
    edited July 2019
    Mike wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Sometimes its about who actually fits the team and players around them/system around them. City achieved incredible things without a single world class CB in the squad. Laporte being the closest but he isn't world class.

    The only true WC CB in this league and to be honest even the world at the moment is VVD.

    You have a good blend of CB now with Lindelof and Maguire. A solid RB, decent LB and imo still a world class keeper in De Gea.

    Mid is shoddy, attack is fairly decent.
    :lol:How isn't Laporte world class? He's was just as good as Van Dijk last season

    I have to agree with you on that. Laporte is a world class defender, he's proven he's in that top bracket of defenders.
  • WelshWizard
    731 posts An Exciting Prospect
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Sometimes its about who actually fits the team and players around them/system around them. City achieved incredible things without a single world class CB in the squad. Laporte being the closest but he isn't world class.

    The only true WC CB in this league and to be honest even the world at the moment is VVD.

    You have a good blend of CB now with Lindelof and Maguire. A solid RB, decent LB and imo still a world class keeper in De Gea.

    Mid is shoddy, attack is fairly decent.

    Agree. We are finally buying for roles.

    System will be the biggest signing we have. City had Delph, Stones, Otamendi and Walker as a back 4 winning titles and conceding the least. Liverpool have won the champions league with a pure functional midfield. There are plenty of examples of managing with perceived weakness. I struggle to name a back four I would rather have and even struggle to pick individuals from the league. (System wise I'm happy at FB, CB I'd nick VVD :D ) no system I would be close to taking Liverpool defence but that is honestly it.

    Going from having a clear issue at RB and ball playing CB to this is a great window, If the Mid receives similar attention it must then be seen as a very good window.
  • Ahmer50x
    24981 posts Player of the Year
    Van Dijk and Laporte are the two world class CBs in the league atm IMO
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    Behave @Mike VVD is in a league of his own. I think Laporte had a top top season, but he isn't world class for me yet. Laporte still makes individual errors in poor areas. VVD is flawless and for me that isn't even up for debate haha.

    Laporte easily the second best CB in the league of course.
  • Apollo
    20504 posts Club Captain
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Behave @Mike VVD is in a league of his own. I think Laporte had a top top season, but he isn't world class for me yet. Laporte still makes individual errors in poor areas. VVD is flawless and for me that isn't even up for debate haha.

    Laporte easily the second best CB in the league of course.

    VVD is better but that doesn't mean that Laporte isn't world class. They both are.
  • ViVaWhom
    9353 posts League Winner
    laporte kinda bottled it last season in the CL against spurs but other than that he was solid
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    Apollo wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Behave @Mike VVD is in a league of his own. I think Laporte had a top top season, but he isn't world class for me yet. Laporte still makes individual errors in poor areas. VVD is flawless and for me that isn't even up for debate haha.

    Laporte easily the second best CB in the league of course.

    VVD is better but that doesn't mean that Laporte isn't world class. They both are.

    I think my definition of world class is a bit different, absolute top tier for me is world class and I just don't think Laporte is that yet but he could easily become that. He's only 25.
  • WelshWizard
    731 posts An Exciting Prospect
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    Van Dijk and Laporte are the two world class CBs in the league atm IMO

    Most probably right but hard to separate in to who is WC as the margins are so small especially when it comes to defensive output.

    Van Dijk just had an insane season for the football played these days and was far ahead. A few players in the group far behind him did well for the league but margins are a lot smaller with more emphasis on defence as a unit and partnerships.

    On Maguire - City would look way more scary with him alongside Laporte shouldn't be the aim but definitely a bonus with their limits on foreign players.
  • WelshWizard
    731 posts An Exciting Prospect
    edited July 2019
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    Behave @Mike VVD is in a league of his own. I think Laporte had a top top season, but he isn't world class for me yet. Laporte still makes individual errors in poor areas. VVD is flawless and for me that isn't even up for debate haha.

    Laporte easily the second best CB in the league of course.

    VVD is better but that doesn't mean that Laporte isn't world class. They both are.

    I think my definition of world class is a bit different, absolute top tier for me is world class and I just don't think Laporte is that yet but he could easily become that. He's only 25.

    Same definition for me true WC is a player who would fit in any era and not standout vs everyone who has come before and that's why there are so few on my WC list everyone else is good or bad. Don't know if VVD can produce the same as was unseen before in the league and will be tested in different ways but just with eye test alone you can see he is way out in front and more complete compared to anyone else in the league and most in the world. You lower that definition and Maguire is almost on it :D .
  • Apollo
    20504 posts Club Captain
    With a bit of luck these Maguire reports today were just slightly premature and we get confirmation from the reliable sources tomorrow.
  • Pughy30
    27693 posts Player of the Year
    Calling AWB one of the best right backs in the world due to one good season with Palace when it comes to being defensively sound just doesn’t feel right :D
  • WelshWizard
    731 posts An Exciting Prospect
    edited July 2019
    Ahmer50x wrote: »

    Rather a comparison vs Smalling as that's what is getting replaced cause it just ends up being, here is what Lindelof is poor at and guess what Maguire is good at these :D but whatever comparison is made we know we are getting an upgrade and I don't think that was an issue for anyone,

    Best point = "Is Harry Maguire a world class centre back? No. Is he an excellent centre back? Yes and he has some world class attributes."

    I won't put a ranking number on it but he is in that top group behind VVD in the Prem, take the role required to partner with Lindelof in to consideration and I think he is Top 1 out of the realistic ones which is basically everyone bar VVD who would likely be ahead due to his completeness rather than playstyle. You merge it to World Football and it largely stays the same with just WC CBs moving ahead overall but he right at the top still with role.

    "Attributes which could be exploited such as his lack of recovery as well as below average acceleration." - This point is why you have partnerships - There are very few complete defenders ever never mind right now.
    These are things you can also protect with you approach as a player or system, he has shown the IQ to cover these as best he can and our system with Lindelof will demand the proactive approach that lessen the urgency of speed if you position yourself correctly as you press i,e Passing lanes/Man.

    Simple stats view on why his impact could be huge for the defence as an Unit and the team as a whole,
    1. If we break the lines more the attack has more chances to create.
    2. With a another CB that's good on the ball teams won't set up to target Lindelof in press
    3. Won't get beat as much as Smalling(same number Maguire played 400+ mins more) and reads the game better.(Intercepts more)
    4. Will win more aerial duels than Smalling.(Way higher success rate)
    5. Bigger set-piece threat.(More goals and Aerial duel success rate)

  • WelshWizard
    731 posts An Exciting Prospect
    edited July 2019
    Pughy30 wrote: »
    Calling AWB one of the best right backs in the world due to one good season with Palace when it comes to being defensively sound just doesn’t feel right :D

    I get the point but FB can be used differently and it's down to what you value most.

    When them defensively stats are the best in Europe by quite a margin in a defensive position you can definitely say he is one of the best RBs in the world.

    Trent Alexander-Arnold is one of the best RB in the world based purely on his offensive output he not bad defensively but AWB isn't bad on the ball either, they just shone in different areas and were used differently for vastly different sides last season.

    Ideally AWB doesn't get worked as much and will have more of the ball to show off that side of his game more but having that defensively ability in his locker is a huge plus and I actually think I prefer he has that as a starting point rather the the attacking abilly Dalot has for example. As I think if he needs to work on the attacking side(I don't :D ex winger and all that and bit's I've seen for better sides not the Hodgson hoofballl) it will be easier for him.
  • Ahmer50x
    24981 posts Player of the Year
    I don’t think it’s controversial to say TAA is the best RB in the world is it?
  • XxRichiexRichxX
    33302 posts National Team Captain
    edited July 2019
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    The issue I have with signing Maguire for that much... is that I'd rather we spent "big" on a CB when we had CL to offer, to increase the chances of signing a better CB than Maguire. Genuinely don't feel he's the CB that takes us up a level.

    He takes you up a level from what you already have but not sure he and Lindelof is a title winning CB partnership.

    He increases our chance of locking down top 4, sure, but our chances were pretty good even with Smalling (despite everyone's opinion of him largely down to his awful ball control).

    I don't care that we are potentially about to sign him... the cost is just absurd. Should be getting a guaranteed world class CB for that price.

    We don't get a "World Class CB" for that price. For right now it's seen as the right risk free move even if I would of prefered going for a prospect or 2 and hoping we lucked out. Maguire is an upgrade on Smalling on ball at feet and in the air which could be huge when combined with everything but let's not forget Smalling is our best defender and will be a useful squad member but can we get rid of Jones and Rojo yet? :D My worry is we won't look to progress with taking punts on prospects to better AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw and keep the deadwood around standing still instead of being ready to really challenge.

    I disagree... I'm sure you could get a world class defender for 80-100m, or at the very least one with the potential to be or on the cusp of being.
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    The issue I have with signing Maguire for that much... is that I'd rather we spent "big" on a CB when we had CL to offer, to increase the chances of signing a better CB than Maguire. Genuinely don't feel he's the CB that takes us up a level.

    He takes you up a level from what you already have but not sure he and Lindelof is a title winning CB partnership.

    He increases our chance of locking down top 4, sure, but our chances were pretty good even with Smalling (despite everyone's opinion of him largely down to his awful ball control).

    I don't care that we are potentially about to sign him... the cost is just absurd. Should be getting a guaranteed world class CB for that price.

    But the thing is even with CL football you cannot get a guaranteed WC CB these days. There isn't many WC centre backs actually out there.

    Maguire is the best you can realistically get due to your position right now. Its not your money and you're improving other areas so no room to complain unless he massively flops.

    I understand it doesn't guarantee anything. My point is we probably won't bother looking, which annoys me because there are better CB's out there than Maguire. Genuinely one of the most overrated CB's. For 80m, you'd expect to at the very least get a top 5 CB in the league.

  • Wyojasond
    14887 posts Has That Special Something
    edited July 2019
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I don’t think it’s controversial to say TAA is the best RB in the world is it?

    Kinda crazy to look at Liverpool’s defense less than 2 years ago compared to now when you could say we have the best LB, RB and CB in the world 😎

    Watching AWB and TAA battle it out for England the next few years will be exciting to watch too (That’s if Southgate moves on from Walker though 🤷‍♂️)

    I’m eager to see what AWB does this year on a more attacking team. TAA grew a lot as a defender this year, so AWB will have to match his attacking to get in that same bracket. What’s a reasonable assist number....5-7?
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I don’t think it’s controversial to say TAA is the best RB in the world is it?

    With very good reason, he’s proven himself at the very highest level in the biggest competition in club football multiple times.

    AWB has proven himself to be defensively sound at Crystal Palace. You can’t say he’s one of the best right backs in the world until he’s proven it at a big team.

    I still have doubts about him going forward.
  • Pughy30
    27693 posts Player of the Year
    Yeah that's my thing with AWB you can't call him world class based off a good season defensively with Palace that's just kind of crazy. You have no idea how good he is when he has to perform in attack consistently and under pressure when he's playing in European competitions against top opposition when there's expectations on him.
  • Apollo
    20504 posts Club Captain
    He's one of the best prospects in his position because of how outstanding he's been defensively in the most challenging league in the world. It's too early to call him world class for his all round game, but he definitely has the potential to be given the excellent foundation he already has.
  • Kellnerr
    3814 posts National Call-Up
    I'd argue that the modern fullback needs to be excellent at going forward and just solid as an individual at the back - for absolute top teams of course. The system and organization at the back can make up for some minor errors so you most likely won't even notice.
    AWB being really good at the back is a huge bonus, but I feel now at United he needs to start to show what kind of an attacking threat he is to be up there with the best.
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    yeah most full backs for top sides are generally top tier when it comes to attacking and not as good defensively. We will see if he has it in his locker.
  • Retro_G
    33018 posts National Team Captain
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    yeah most full backs for top sides are generally top tier when it comes to attacking and not as good defensively. We will see if he has it in his locker.

    Kimmich is brilliant going forward and defensively. I rate him as the best right back in the world at the moment, you could see how much Munich missed him in there second leg against Liverpool. I'm hoping AWB can develop into a similar player.
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    Retro_G wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    yeah most full backs for top sides are generally top tier when it comes to attacking and not as good defensively. We will see if he has it in his locker.

    Kimmich is brilliant going forward and defensively. I rate him as the best right back in the world at the moment, you could see how much Munich missed him in there second leg against Liverpool. I'm hoping AWB can develop into a similar player.

    Agree with Kimmich, don't think AWB could ever get onto his level in terms of playmaking though. Kimmich would be one of the best CM's in the world as well, both feet, can do it all. AWB is more of an athletic player that would be a pure crosser of the ball imo.

    But it'll be good to see how he develops.
  • Kellnerr
    3814 posts National Call-Up
    Retro_G wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    yeah most full backs for top sides are generally top tier when it comes to attacking and not as good defensively. We will see if he has it in his locker.

    Kimmich is brilliant going forward and defensively. I rate him as the best right back in the world at the moment, you could see how much Munich missed him in there second leg against Liverpool. I'm hoping AWB can develop into a similar player.

    You can probably ask any German about Kimmich and he will tell you that he's absolute garbage defensively.
  • Retro_G
    33018 posts National Team Captain
    edited July 2019
    Kellnerr wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    TakeItSlow wrote: »
    yeah most full backs for top sides are generally top tier when it comes to attacking and not as good defensively. We will see if he has it in his locker.

    Kimmich is brilliant going forward and defensively. I rate him as the best right back in the world at the moment, you could see how much Munich missed him in there second leg against Liverpool. I'm hoping AWB can develop into a similar player.

    You can probably ask any German about Kimmich and he will tell you that he's absolute garbage defensively.

    You should know more than most, how good defensively Kimmich can be, when the system is set-up to defend. He was MOTM at Anfield, put on a defensive masterclass. Yes he gets caught out of position when Munich are playing their normal game, he is instructed to bomb forward. He started his career as a centre defensive midfielder, can excel in defensive situations. Kimmich is the most complete right back in the world at the moment.
    Post edited by Retro_G on
  • Mike
    10419 posts Has That Special Something
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I don’t think it’s controversial to say TAA is the best RB in the world is it?
    Walker is much better
  • Sellish
    10194 posts Has That Special Something
    Kimmich best RB in the world for me. Probably TA after. Walker is starting to decline.
  • Pxul_
    9703 posts League Winner
    Walker is a shocking full back😂 Cancelo should be in the top tier of RBs for me.

    TAA > Kimmich > Cancelo >>>>>>>>>> Walker
  • TakeItSlow
    9360 posts League Winner
    Mike wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I don’t think it’s controversial to say TAA is the best RB in the world is it?
    Walker is much better

    You are joking?
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