Do we expect perfection?

1
RexAnglo1066
193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
edited January 1
What I mean is, you often hear people say they want a simulation, something that represents football properly, yet expect robotic players who never, ever make a mistake and always score every goal.

Do we not see players miss open goals in real football?

Do we not see players misplace a simple pass, or lose control of a simply pass played to them?

At what point do you say "okay, I want fun and simplicity over realism"?

If we really, truly want an accurate representation of the beautiful game then do we have to accept the bad too?

Now, let me be clear, I'm not saying that E.A have intentionally added these incidents of "human error"; but if they had, and claimed to be using some kind of complex coding to ensure more life like behaviour, would we still complain?

Isn't real football messy and unpredictable, with a poor first touch or a botched free kick that hits row Z, as much as it is elegant tika taka and sublime dribbling?

I guess what I'm asking is, would we really want a simulation that makes these human mistakes part of the game, intentionally, I might add?

Is it more important to give the player ultimate control?

If so, why have player ratings at all?

Every player should be 75 rated and it should be 100% down to the player in that case.

But it's not.

Is there a way to strike a balance so that we get the best of both worlds?

Increase the casual fun factor at the expense of genuine realism or introduce human (A.I) error to the digital players and increase the skill gap?

Comments

  • DarkMakoEyes
    49 posts Park Captain
    Yes but its the human that makes the mistakes in real life, and we are the humans controlling the game, so the mistakes that are made should be because WE the human havent aimed or powered up properly.. Not some "random occurance" to balance out the game, which ends up making it unfair and frustrating..

    Exactly. We should be allowed to control 100% our players. EA should let us make our own mistakes. Besides the obvious ones, unreal 180° passes should contain errors. Also first touch shots from 25 meters of the goal. But 100% safe receptions and when your player has 95 Ball control and nobody is close to him shouldn't be a 50/50
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited January 2
    But if we take away the individual traits of the different in game players, then how does Messi end up any better than Random Unknown Guy from the Chinese league?

    Once you add personality and uniqueness to avatars you can never have total human control because you are restricted by whether they can shoot with a certain foot or are too short to win headers etc...

    Either you have 22 players who are all identical and let human skill decide, or you accept a degree of randomness and therefore acknowledge mistakes will happen based on the various attributes, both positive and negative, of the in game players.

    A mix that rewards human skill while creating a distinct feeling for the best in game players has to be the ideal, no?


  • blue166
    605 posts An Exciting Prospect
    edited January 2
    I think what EA have been doing to a point is fine.

    There are a lot of things that look absolutely beautiful in the game. Some of the animations are brilliant. How anyone can say there are no particular likeness to real life superstars is bizzare. (In terms of key players) I can tell what player is on the ball by the way they move and the actions they show.

    I think what grates on people is the strange pattern of sessions you can have where you feel things are going for you or against. It is hard to put your finger on. Sometimes it feels that the AI is with you and other times against you.

    My issues with the Game is always cheap ways of getting goals. I hate exploits where you can dominate someone to the point you have hit post, bar had clearances of the line then they hit some get out of jail free goal on you. I hate that.

    If EA keep the game tidy and make sure there is little to none exploits then I enjoy the game.

    I only play head to head seasons so can't comment about EA servers for match up as it's P2P. If you meet someone with a lame connection then it's just one of those things. BUT when it plays smooth it's fine.

    The game isn't perfect. We do demand a lot but also look at what games look like and play Like these days. People are spoilt. But the tech is there to produce this content.

    FIFA is probably the only game that can have me buzzing one minute and then ready to launch my game pad minutes after. Forza doesn't make me want to do that nor does Battlefield or any other game. So is FIFA doing it's job of portraying football?

    To the above comments. You have to leave player stats true to life. It is what it is. I wouldn't want to play Forza with all the cars the same. It's part and parcel of it.
  • DarkMakoEyes
    49 posts Park Captain
    edited January 2
    But if we take away the individual traits of the different in game players, then how does Messi end up any better than Random Unknown Guy from the Chinese league?

    Once you add personality and uniqueness to avatars you can never have total human control because you are restricted by whether they can shoot with a certain foot or are too short to win headers etc...

    Either you have 22 players who are all identical and let human skill decide, or you accept a degree of randomness and therefore acknowledge mistakes will happen based on the various attributes, both positive and negative, of the in game players.

    A mix that rewards human skill while creating a distinct feeling for the best in game players has to be the ideal, no?


    I don't mean you are not right. What I mean is that there are obvious errors provoked by the skill difference of each player. We don't spect to Buffon make the same free kicks as Messi for instance. I don't expect to have a great shot with Messi if I position him to kick with the right foot neither. Those errors are as you said, part of the difference of skill and characteristics of each player.

    The problem is when the Gameplay force you to commit errors a real football player wouldn't make.

    For instance, When you plan to make a first touch shot and your player is perfectly positioned to shot a finesse shot with his Strong foot and suddenly 0.50 seconds before the ball reaches him, he changes his stance to shoot with the weak foot even though it wasn't what you ordered him to do. That kind of error is what I expect EA to fix.
  • Rossi1000
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited January 2
    Take
    gran tourismo
    assassins creed
    red dead
    Drive club
    The last of us
    Battlefield
    Battlefront
    F1
    List goes on of games that don’t alter there gameplay every bloody week!

    Why does fifa continuously mess around with the gameplay every week it plays differently

    There is now a fine line between game and real with the gamer asking for realism but if a mistake happens in the game the game is broke .... but surely it should be balance the game play and we the gamer have to master the game not change it because twitters had another meltdown losing 1 game on fut due to a bad pass

    Personally think fut you should be a separate game all together

    This years fifa every mode plays differently from fut to friendlies why is this the case is more effort being poured into fut than all the other modes ?
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    But if we take away the individual traits of the different in game players, then how does Messi end up any better than Random Unknown Guy from the Chinese league?

    Once you add personality and uniqueness to avatars you can never have total human control because you are restricted by whether they can shoot with a certain foot or are too short to win headers etc...

    Either you have 22 players who are all identical and let human skill decide, or you accept a degree of randomness and therefore acknowledge mistakes will happen based on the various attributes, both positive and negative, of the in game players.

    A mix that rewards human skill while creating a distinct feeling for the best in game players has to be the ideal, no?


    We should keep individual traits but what is currently missing is the reflection of these traits in the game, there should be difference in speed, stamina, physical play, height, strength of shot, curve of shot etc, but the aim input has to be 100% fully manual based on player input, just the outcome should differ based on the player ratings

    There has to be consistency in the outputs, for the same input there has to be the same output every time if you do it with the same player, to allow to practice and build skill.

    AI hand is needed as we have 11 players, or better 10 field players as the GK is more less automatic (just a little movement is possible) but AI should be again doing only what I want to (set a tactic of movement of every player based on preference) but defending has to be mainly on human to interact, no AI tackles, blocks

    AI has to be set to lower level to reward manual defending, otherwise we'll end up like current game that a lot of players leave defending only to AI
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Oh, I 100% agree that the randomness is what makes it so frustrating.

    In many ways people would rather have a poorer quality that remained consistent, rather than a constant swing from glorious perfection to a total mess.

    It gets to the point where you are loathe to play online, which immediately cuts a huge element of competition from the experience.
  • blue166
    605 posts An Exciting Prospect
    EA must give us an open BETA for FIFA 2020. And to let us play online during it.

    A must.
  • Benja190782
    1100 posts Professional
    edited January 2
    It’s a very very good question, but I believe that we will never fully agree as I want hardcore simulation and others want arcade.

    In the end I believe that the most important thing that EA should focus on, is to provide the Ultimate football experience in terms of atmosphere and realism.

    It means that Christian Eriksen is a better passer than Robbie Savage, and Lukaku is stronger than Jesus.

    One of the most important things EA should focus on gameplay wise. Is the clipping.
    The ball goes through hands and feets, heck I scored a goal that went through my opponents entire body. It’s just not good enough. And one of the most frustrating things in FIFA if you ask me.
    It’s not believeable. The gameplay can not be enjoyed because it’s not believeable.

    When that is said. All game assists should be off in tournaments like WL. No real good fifa player needs assists. No offence. But it’s true.

  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    blue166 wrote: »
    EA must give us an open BETA for FIFA 2020. And to let us play online during it.

    A must.

    Agreed, and also they must stop taking 1 step forward and then 2 steps back every time the bring out a new patch.

    That, and start listening to the community...really listen.
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    It’s not believeable. The gameplay can not be enjoyed because it’s not believeable.

    When that is said. All game assists should be off in tournaments like WL. No real good fifa player needs assists. No offence. But it’s true.

    exactly this full manual settings for competitive mode.
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    It’s a very very good question, but I believe that we will never fully agree as I want hardcore simulation and others want arcade.

    In the end I believe that the most important thing that EA should focus on, is to provide the Ultimate football experience in terms of atmosphere and realism.

    It means that Christian Eriksen is a better passer than Robbie Savage, and Lukaku is stronger than Jesus.

    One of the most important things EA should focus on gameplay wise. Is the clipping.
    The ball goes through hands and feets, heck I scored a goal that went through my opponents entire body. It’s just not good enough. And one of the most frustrating things in FIFA if you ask me.
    It’s not believeable. The gameplay can not be enjoyed because it’s not believeable.

    When that is said. All game assists should be off in tournaments like WL. No real good fifa player needs assists. No offence. But it’s true.

    I would quite like to see a totally manual game mode where all in game players have identical stats (ideally all equally good not equally bad).

    Then you really could put your skills to the test, totally unaided by OP players like Ronaldo or Mbappe, and it would come down to human creativity and tactical savvy.
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited January 2
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    It’s not believeable. The gameplay can not be enjoyed because it’s not believeable.

    When that is said. All game assists should be off in tournaments like WL. No real good fifa player needs assists. No offence. But it’s true.

    exactly this full manual settings for competitive mode.

    When you consider these so called "pro players" are lauded as the best in the world and win lots of prize money, it should be a basic requirement that they play with full manual controls.
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    pro players use meta to get advantage over other pros.

    Full manual is the only logical settings in competitive mode but EA want to have one mode for all players.

    Skill gap is something they dont want, so any adjustment to current so called competitive mode would just create skill gap, and its so unwanted in business model EA uses
  • TheDinhoKid10
    1298 posts Professional
    Nope just expect a multi billion dollar company to make a decent game thats not FUBAR
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited January 2
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    pro players use meta to get advantage over other pros.

    Full manual is the only logical settings in competitive mode but EA want to have one mode for all players.

    Skill gap is something they dont want, so any adjustment to current so called competitive mode would just create skill gap, and its so unwanted in business model EA uses

    You just make them play full manual at tournaments.

    That has no impact on the rest of us, as it is a special circumstance and one that sorts the best players from the rest of us.

    Other so called "e-sports" have severe limitations or uniquely designed rules to make it as challenging as possible.

    CoD tournaments limit teams to certain weapons, they can't use UAV etc...all of which is designed to make it much more difficult than it would be in a standard public lobby.

    The logic being these are supposed to be the best players in the world and are competing for large sums of cash in front of an audience.
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Nope just expect a multi billion dollar company to make a decent game thats not FUBAR

    That's a given.

  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    pro players use meta to get advantage over other pros.

    Full manual is the only logical settings in competitive mode but EA want to have one mode for all players.

    Skill gap is something they dont want, so any adjustment to current so called competitive mode would just create skill gap, and its so unwanted in business model EA uses

    You just make them play full manual at tournaments.

    That has no impact on the rest of us, as it is a special circumstance and one that sorts the best players from the rest of us.

    Other so called "e-sports" have severe limitations or uniquely designed rules to make it as challenging as possible.

    CoD tournaments limit teams to certain weapons, they can't use UAV etc...all of which is designed to make it much more difficult than it would be in a standard public lobby.

    The logic being these are supposed to be the best players in the world and are competing for large sums of cash in front of an audience.

    I completely agree and that should have happened long time ago to limit these pro e-sport events to full manual only.

    That would also mean to limit FUT champions WL qualification to full manual too, but not neceserly.

    I would like to know the reasoning from EA, why they keep assistance on.

    @EA_Andy can you please note and answer?
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    also clash royale events limit all cards on tournaments to level 9 to equal all contestants and make it more difficult and fun to watch, but again its about giving conditions to players to show their best to the world.

    I can imagine equaling all fut cards on these fifa esport tournaments to the same level to let the human skill decide.

    But then we are at the root issue with this game as an esport, consistency and randomness and servers and too much AI interference prevents FIFA to become a real esport
  • tstuber
    43 posts Last Pick at the Park
    Very good disussion with soo many valid points!

    Sadly, I am pretty sure this will not be read by EA, because they are busy making more money with FUT casino loot boxed as in this EA cash pacman: https://pacman.exelance.ch
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    tstuber wrote: »
    Very good disussion with soo many valid points!

    Sadly, I am pretty sure this will not be read by EA, because they are busy making more money with FUT casino loot boxed as in this EA cash pacman: https://pacman.exelance.ch

    Yes, unless it affects their bottom line they really aren't interested.
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    also clash royale events limit all cards on tournaments to level 9 to equal all contestants and make it more difficult and fun to watch, but again its about giving conditions to players to show their best to the world.

    I can imagine equaling all fut cards on these fifa esport tournaments to the same level to let the human skill decide.

    But then we are at the root issue with this game as an esport, consistency and randomness and servers and too much AI interference prevents FIFA to become a real esport

    I'd like to see them play with an all bronze team, though I accept people want to see those Pele type superstars.

    Maybe keep the visual representation of all the top players but set all their stats to identical numbers so its about human player skill and not the OP nature of the in game players.
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited January 3
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    Maybe one day we will see FIFA with full manual controls and equal player stats on a world cup competition and only player skill will decide the champion

    We are light years from there but we can hope :)
  • blue166
    605 posts An Exciting Prospect
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    Maybe one day we will see FIFA with full manual controls and equal player stats on a world cup competition and only player skill will decide the champion

    We are light years from there but we can hope :)

    The concern for EA would be a drop in sales. Too many people are impatient so they will refuse to master full manual. Shame but the truth.
  • flcinusa
    416 posts Sunday League Hero
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    They did that for the FIWC for years, and there was never a hint of argument about that at all. but then they wouldn't be able to push FUT cards used by esports players
  • SVKslato8
    417 posts Sunday League Hero
    flcinusa wrote: »
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    They did that for the FIWC for years, and there was never a hint of argument about that at all. but then they wouldn't be able to push FUT cards used by esports players

    Exactly I know it was done for FIWC, its a shame they changed it
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited January 4
    flcinusa wrote: »
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    They did that for the FIWC for years, and there was never a hint of argument about that at all. but then they wouldn't be able to push FUT cards used by esports players

    So why did they revert back to the easier controls?

    Surely not to make it easier for the best players?

    After all, they will be in the finals regardless, so all you are doing is giving them an easy ride.

    Any so called "sport" should strive to be the pinnacle by having the best players.

    Dumbing it down serves no one, except those pro players who now have a much easier time of it.

    Just think if real football had such low expectations?

    Imagine if instead of it crossing the line to count as scoring a goal you just had to get it on target, or they got rid of offsides because players couldn't be bothered to play along the lines and time their runs.

    No problem, just dumb it down!!!!

    Only they don't do that; and calling it an "e-sport" when the computer assists them half the time seems a bit ridiculous.

    Full manual with no A.I interference, save keeping players in formation when you are off the ball, should be standard.

  • Bellstar23
    219 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    What I mean is, you often hear people say they want a simulation, something that represents football properly, yet expect robotic players who never, ever make a mistake and always score every goal.

    Do we not see players miss open goals in real football?

    Do we not see players misplace a simple pass, or lose control of a simply pass played to them?

    At what point do you say "okay, I want fun and simplicity over realism"?

    If we really, truly want an accurate representation of the beautiful game then do we have to accept the bad too?

    Now, let me be clear, I'm not saying that E.A have intentionally added these incidents of "human error"; but if they had, and claimed to be using some kind of complex coding to ensure more life like behaviour, would we still complain?

    Isn't real football messy and unpredictable, with a poor first touch or a botched free kick that hits row Z, as much as it is elegant tika taka and sublime dribbling?

    I guess what I'm asking is, would we really want a simulation that makes these human mistakes part of the game, intentionally, I might add?

    Is it more important to give the player ultimate control?

    If so, why have player ratings at all?

    Every player should be 75 rated and it should be 100% down to the player in that case.

    But it's not.

    Is there a way to strike a balance so that we get the best of both worlds?

    Increase the casual fun factor at the expense of genuine realism or introduce human (A.I) error to the digital players and increase the skill gap?

    It's a game mate it's not real football. And yes the player who's playing should have full control of there players.
  • RexAnglo1066
    193 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    flcinusa wrote: »
    SVKslato8 wrote: »
    I believe that equaling the player stats and all the aspects of game for every player is the must for esport.

    They did that for the FIWC for years, and there was never a hint of argument about that at all. but then they wouldn't be able to push FUT cards used by esports players

    So why did they revert back to the easier controls?

    Surely not to make it easier for the best players?

    After all, they will be in the finals regardless, so all you are doing is giving them an easy ride.

    Any so called "sport" should strive to be the pinnacle by having the best players.

    Dumbing it down serves no one, except those pro players who now have a much easier time of it.

    Just think if real football had such low expectations?

    Imagine if instead of it crossing the line to count as scoring a goal you just had to get it on target, or they got rid of offsides because players couldn't be bothered to play along the lines and time their runs.

    No problem, just dumb it down!!!!

    Only they don't do that; and calling it an "e-sport" when the computer assists them half time seems a bit ridiculous.

    Full manual with no A.I interference, save keeping players in formation when you are off the ball, should be standard.
    Bellstar23 wrote: »
    What I mean is, you often hear people say they want a simulation, something that represents football properly, yet expect robotic players who never, ever make a mistake and always score every goal.

    Do we not see players miss open goals in real football?

    Do we not see players misplace a simple pass, or lose control of a simply pass played to them?

    At what point do you say "okay, I want fun and simplicity over realism"?

    If we really, truly want an accurate representation of the beautiful game then do we have to accept the bad too?

    Now, let me be clear, I'm not saying that E.A have intentionally added these incidents of "human error"; but if they had, and claimed to be using some kind of complex coding to ensure more life like behaviour, would we still complain?

    Isn't real football messy and unpredictable, with a poor first touch or a botched free kick that hits row Z, as much as it is elegant tika taka and sublime dribbling?

    I guess what I'm asking is, would we really want a simulation that makes these human mistakes part of the game, intentionally, I might add?

    Is it more important to give the player ultimate control?

    If so, why have player ratings at all?

    Every player should be 75 rated and it should be 100% down to the player in that case.

    But it's not.

    Is there a way to strike a balance so that we get the best of both worlds?

    Increase the casual fun factor at the expense of genuine realism or introduce human (A.I) error to the digital players and increase the skill gap?

    It's a game mate it's not real football. And yes the player who's playing should have full control of there players.

    Well done, you stated the obvious and made zero contribution to the discussion...quite an achievement.
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