Manchester United Football Club

Comments

  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.
  • Retro_G
    33018 posts National Team Captain
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.

    I think he would be fine, go look up the stats for how well Fred performed this season defensively. He has been a monster at intercepting, winning the ball back, he has all the attributes to be akin to a Fernandinho type player.
  • Keano
    16410 posts World Class
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.

    This. Fred is more b2b like Pogba, though Mctominay also is meant to be a b2b, he's come into the role of holding Mid, so i'd have Pogba>fred & Mctominay>matic for now.
  • Teh Zombz
    4305 posts National Call-Up
    been a while since we debating over who should be starting in midfield
  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    Teh Zombz wrote: »
    been a while since we debating over who should be starting in midfield

    It's a good sign of progress, the squad's getting back to the strength it needs to be!
  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.

    I think he would be fine, go look up the stats for how well Fred performed this season defensively. He has been a monster at intercepting, winning the ball back, he has all the attributes to be akin to a Fernandinho type player.

    Just to clarify, I'm not disputing how good Fred's been this season, he's been quality. I'm purely talking about balance. Fred has thrived this season next to Matic or McTominay, where he can go out like you say and win the ball back higher up the pitch than you'd want the deepest midfielder to be, because he has Matic or McTominay there to dovetail with who can cover him when needed. He wouldn't have that with Pogba, he would need to be the deepest midfielder the majority of the time and I don't think we'd have the level of defensive protection with a pivot of those two.

    If we're then going to bring stats into it, here's an example of what I mean:

    LxWlorE.png

    He's dribbled past far too often to be the deepest midfielder of the two. He needs to be the higher up of the midfield two, engaging the opposition central midfield trying to win the ball back to thrive, and he wouldn't be able to do that anywhere near as much in that midfield. As I say, I think it needs to be McTominay or Matic competing to partner Pogba, and Fred as Pogba's backup. I think that's the most balanced route.
  • Teh Zombz
    4305 posts National Call-Up
    edited June 1
    i love fred but him next to pogba with bruno in front will leave us way too open, he tries to win ball back at all times which is fine if he has someone like matic next to him
  • Retro_G
    33018 posts National Team Captain
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.

    I think he would be fine, go look up the stats for how well Fred performed this season defensively. He has been a monster at intercepting, winning the ball back, he has all the attributes to be akin to a Fernandinho type player.

    Just to clarify, I'm not disputing how good Fred's been this season, he's been quality. I'm purely talking about balance. Fred has thrived this season next to Matic or McTominay, where he can go out like you say and win the ball back higher up the pitch than you'd want the deepest midfielder to be, because he has Matic or McTominay there to dovetail with who can cover him when needed. He wouldn't have that with Pogba, he would need to be the deepest midfielder the majority of the time and I don't think we'd have the level of defensive protection with a pivot of those two.

    If we're then going to bring stats into it, here's an example of what I mean:

    LxWlorE.png

    He's dribbled past far too often to be the deepest midfielder of the two. He needs to be the higher up of the midfield two, engaging the opposition central midfield trying to win the ball back to thrive, and he wouldn't be able to do that anywhere near as much in that midfield. As I say, I think it needs to be McTominay or Matic competing to partner Pogba, and Fred as Pogba's backup. I think that's the most balanced route.

    Dribbled past more other due to his role in the team. I don't see why he can't be molded into a more defensive unit with the correct instructions. You also have to take into account the amount of minutes he played, how many games he played in where our midfield was completely overrun.

    I was going to show you the squawka comparison matrix, for his impressive stats this season, but the bloody thing is down. Pogba can also do a job defensively when asked, he proved that at the world cup with France. I'll come back to this at a later date, when I have the stats to back up my argument.



  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    edited June 1
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the midfield balance argument, @Retro_G , it's worth noting that the biggest fan of Fred in the thread, @Teh Zombz , agrees with me though :wink:

    I used that stat to backup my argument, not to make it. You're using stats that suggest he's been very good in what he's done, but that's not the issue, we all know that he's been very good, I'm talking about the balance and role in midfield.

    One final thing:
    You also have to take into account the amount of minutes he played

    I did that by not using the base stats and by using stats per 90 for each player so the number of appearances of the three main candidates didn't skew the stats.
  • Ahmer50x
    22916 posts Club Captain
    Big news about Ighalo being extended until January. Striker no longer a necessity this summer.

    For me, our targets for the summer should be crystal clear now: Sancho, Bellingham, Grealish.
  • finsfan85
    13397 posts Has That Special Something
    All Lives Matter on BlackoutTuesday?
  • Pietu
    6575 posts Big Money Move
    finsfan85 wrote: »
    All Lives Matter on BlackoutTuesday?

    Maybe he didn't know what all lives matter means? I didn't before someone told me and I could have easily said all lives matter because all lives do matter and I didn't know what it means
  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    finsfan85 wrote: »
    All Lives Matter on BlackoutTuesday?

    Sane did it as well. They made a mistake and corrected it. Of course it would have been better if he just sent the right message originally but at least it was addressed quickly.
  • XxRichiexRichxX
    32990 posts National Team Captain
    edited June 4
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Retro_G wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    So what are we saying our starting XI is?

    Martial
    Rashford-Bruno-Greenwood
    Pogba-McT
    Williams-Maguire-Lindelöf-AWB
    Dave

    I say Greenwood on the right as opposed to ST only because that’s what’s been happening whenever we’ve had Martial up top.

    Honestly forgot if Bailly was playing pre-corona, lol.

    I'd say thats about right yeah, though i'd prob have Shaw as starting Lb given his performances before the stoppage were good, but that depends on if he's come back fighting fit or not.

    The same argument could be made about Fred over McT, Ole is going to have a headache selecting his teams.

    I would argue that McTominay and Matic are the two you'd consider for the spot next to Pogba, and that Fred is backup for Pogba. I don't think the balance would be there with Fred and Pogba in the pivot.

    But regardless, having 4 good options to choose from in the pivot is a great problem for Ole to have.

    I think he would be fine, go look up the stats for how well Fred performed this season defensively. He has been a monster at intercepting, winning the ball back, he has all the attributes to be akin to a Fernandinho type player.

    Just to clarify, I'm not disputing how good Fred's been this season, he's been quality. I'm purely talking about balance. Fred has thrived this season next to Matic or McTominay, where he can go out like you say and win the ball back higher up the pitch than you'd want the deepest midfielder to be, because he has Matic or McTominay there to dovetail with who can cover him when needed. He wouldn't have that with Pogba, he would need to be the deepest midfielder the majority of the time and I don't think we'd have the level of defensive protection with a pivot of those two.

    If we're then going to bring stats into it, here's an example of what I mean:

    LxWlorE.png

    He's dribbled past far too often to be the deepest midfielder of the two. He needs to be the higher up of the midfield two, engaging the opposition central midfield trying to win the ball back to thrive, and he wouldn't be able to do that anywhere near as much in that midfield. As I say, I think it needs to be McTominay or Matic competing to partner Pogba, and Fred as Pogba's backup. I think that's the most balanced route.

    Dribbled past more other due to his role in the team. I don't see why he can't be molded into a more defensive unit with the correct instructions. You also have to take into account the amount of minutes he played, how many games he played in where our midfield was completely overrun.

    I was going to show you the squawka comparison matrix, for his impressive stats this season, but the bloody thing is down. Pogba can also do a job defensively when asked, he proved that at the world cup with France. I'll come back to this at a later date, when I have the stats to back up my argument.



    Fred has been "dribbled past" a lot because of his role as B2B... most of those "dribbled past" are because he's higher up the pitch and tries to win the ball back up in those higher positions.... again as someone has said, he's been, and I think we can all agree that he's been solid defensively... hes definitely not the best compliment to Pogba given Pogba himself will be higher up the pitch. Matic, assuming he can continue his form would be the best in terms of someone that will sit back and park it in front of the defense and give Pogba the freedom to go forward... or Mctominay being the second best imo primarily due to he occasionally likes to get aggressive and gets forward, however, he sits back a lot more than Fred does. At the end of the day, either of those two will be better next to Pogba than Fred because they will provide proper cover with Pogba going forward, where as Fred is likely to be forward too and leave the backline exposed.

    No one here is saying Fred hasn't had a fantastic year... but in terms of balancing the midfield, he and Pogba as a midfield two doesn't appear to be balanced.
  • Shshj
    4767 posts National Call-Up
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.

  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.
  • Ahmer50x
    22916 posts Club Captain
    Apollo wrote: »
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.

    I don’t understand why he’d even be a secondary target. He’s better than Martial but not by enough to justify killing Mason’s future and the club obviously aren’t going to bench Rashford for him.

    I don’t know why his future would be linked to that of someone playing an entirely different role or why he’d be anywhere close to on our radar.

    We’re set at striker for the moment and should we sign Sancho, we’ll be set as far as starting wingers goes too.

    I love Havertz and I like Werner but the links to us don’t make sense as I can’t figure out for the life of me where they’d play.
  • arsenalap
    8077 posts League Winner
    Havertz will end up at Bayern anticlimatically I think.

    They could use him to replace Muller long term, and it makes sense.

    Liverpool would be the 2nd best side for him. We actually need him to replace Ozil perfectly but that wont happen sadly.
  • WryLucky
    2467 posts Fans' Favourite
    The only place Werner could have played for you is at ST. He wasn't going to move Rashford out of his position and he doesn't really play RW.
  • Ahmer50x
    22916 posts Club Captain
    arsenalap wrote: »
    Havertz will end up at Bayern anticlimatically I think.

    They could use him to replace Muller long term, and it makes sense.

    Liverpool would be the 2nd best side for him. We actually need him to replace Ozil perfectly but that wont happen sadly.

    I agree those are the two most likely teams as either the heir to Muller or Firmino. Not sure about the order.

    Having said that, I’m convinced he stays this summer and things could change by next summer if things don’t go as planned for many sides.
  • Apollo
    19449 posts World Class
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.

    I don’t understand why he’d even be a secondary target. He’s better than Martial but not by enough to justify killing Mason’s future and the club obviously aren’t going to bench Rashford for him.

    I don’t know why his future would be linked to that of someone playing an entirely different role or why he’d be anywhere close to on our radar.

    We’re set at striker for the moment and should we sign Sancho, we’ll be set as far as starting wingers goes too.

    I love Havertz and I like Werner but the links to us don’t make sense as I can’t figure out for the life of me where they’d play.

    I didn't want Werner either (not because he's not good but because he's not a good fit as you describe), but I was just speaking from a financial standpoint. I agree that the club having him as even a secondary target doesn't make sense, it's a strange one.
  • Kman
    3187 posts National Call-Up
    It’s crazy how IF we get Sancho we’d go from hardly any threat on the right to basically our most threatening, mainly because he gets his head up and is very unselfish player meaning players like Bruno/Pogba/McT coming from late runs will be picked out as opposed to DJ just looking for the shot. Defenders will have to worry about the pass or Sancho taking on his man and getting into the box..I hope we sign him lol
  • Layton8212
    1727 posts Play-Off Hero
    Apollo wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.

    I don’t understand why he’d even be a secondary target. He’s better than Martial but not by enough to justify killing Mason’s future and the club obviously aren’t going to bench Rashford for him.

    I don’t know why his future would be linked to that of someone playing an entirely different role or why he’d be anywhere close to on our radar.

    We’re set at striker for the moment and should we sign Sancho, we’ll be set as far as starting wingers goes too.

    I love Havertz and I like Werner but the links to us don’t make sense as I can’t figure out for the life of me where they’d play.

    I didn't want Werner either (not because he's not good but because he's not a good fit as you describe), but I was just speaking from a financial standpoint. I agree that the club having him as even a secondary target doesn't make sense, it's a strange one.

    Danny Ings got more goals than Rashford this season, werner will punish maguire everytime you deluded man. United cant compete with city never mind anyone else. The glory days are over enjoy watching everyone build around you
  • Keano
    16410 posts World Class
    Layton8212 wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.

    I don’t understand why he’d even be a secondary target. He’s better than Martial but not by enough to justify killing Mason’s future and the club obviously aren’t going to bench Rashford for him.

    I don’t know why his future would be linked to that of someone playing an entirely different role or why he’d be anywhere close to on our radar.

    We’re set at striker for the moment and should we sign Sancho, we’ll be set as far as starting wingers goes too.

    I love Havertz and I like Werner but the links to us don’t make sense as I can’t figure out for the life of me where they’d play.

    I didn't want Werner either (not because he's not good but because he's not a good fit as you describe), but I was just speaking from a financial standpoint. I agree that the club having him as even a secondary target doesn't make sense, it's a strange one.

    Danny Ings got more goals than Rashford this season, werner will punish maguire everytime you deluded man. United cant compete with city never mind anyone else. The glory days are over enjoy watching everyone build around you

    Firstly, Rashford is a winger not a striker, so the Ings to Rashford comparison... not relevant.

    Secondly Werner may or may not tear Maguire apart, there are ways for big strong defenders to deal with pacey strikers that doesnt involve trying to run side by side with them meaning they get beat everytime, that's called using your strengths to your own advantage.

    Lastly, currently we're not competing with City as we're behind them in points, but this season alone (and this is only my opinion), if Bruno came in during the summer, if Pogba & Rashford both stayed fit, then we'd be in third & a lot closer to City than you make out we are, but that also doesn't add in that City have had a poor season by their standards.

    Either way, Bruno would've helped us win a few more matches, same with Pogba & missing Rashford when he was in top form would've also, so other than not knowing the players positions to compare, you're also providing no actual substance as to why "glory days are over" (though nobody has said we're going to win the Prem next year & the treble the year after).
  • Layton8212
    1727 posts Play-Off Hero
    Is this Pogba guy any good? So you got 2 attacking midfielders, a winger who scores the majority of your goals and your back competing with top 4 next season. Doubt it pal, wake up and taste reality your on the decline... for a long time
  • Tornado31619
    21124 posts Club Captain
    Layton8212 wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    Apollo wrote: »
    Shshj wrote: »
    For what's it's worth, The Athletic's report on Werner says you were not able to make a move unless you found a buyer for Pogba.


    Yep, that's because we don't have further funds after our main targets. Werner was never one of our main targets hence why we'd have to sell to afford him after our other business.

    I don’t understand why he’d even be a secondary target. He’s better than Martial but not by enough to justify killing Mason’s future and the club obviously aren’t going to bench Rashford for him.

    I don’t know why his future would be linked to that of someone playing an entirely different role or why he’d be anywhere close to on our radar.

    We’re set at striker for the moment and should we sign Sancho, we’ll be set as far as starting wingers goes too.

    I love Havertz and I like Werner but the links to us don’t make sense as I can’t figure out for the life of me where they’d play.

    I didn't want Werner either (not because he's not good but because he's not a good fit as you describe), but I was just speaking from a financial standpoint. I agree that the club having him as even a secondary target doesn't make sense, it's a strange one.

    Danny Ings got more goals than Rashford this season, werner will punish maguire everytime you deluded man. United cant compete with city never mind anyone else. The glory days are over enjoy watching everyone build around you

    Ngl I did not expect to find you here :lol:
  • Keano
    16410 posts World Class
    Layton8212 wrote: »
    Is this Pogba guy any good? So you got 2 attacking midfielders, a winger who scores the majority of your goals and your back competing with top 4 next season. Doubt it pal, wake up and taste reality your on the decline... for a long time

    On his day Pogba is one of the best in the world, that has to be on his day though.

    Doesn't matter who scores most of the goals, be it a winger, striker, #10 etc aslong as we're scoring more than we concede, so that has no relevance, Liverpool have their wingers score more than their Striker/CF... please explain how that one is a negative?

    Sure we're competing for top 4 next season, that's the target to get CL & then push on from there, you can't go from being in the top 4 fight to fighting for the title straight off, or you can but it would need a lot of things to go your way & things to gel/click straight off. both posts i've seen of yours come across as the typical United hater without any actual football knowledge as you've shown from both posts.
  • Layton8212
    1727 posts Play-Off Hero
    You talk about Pogba likes hes some kind of De Bruyne, him and Bruno ate attacking minded whos sweeping up on the counter? I guess its upto Maguire and his strength and positioning to keep you solid @Tornado31619 im back for ultimate fut champs and abit of football talk, im here to be entertained
  • Keano
    16410 posts World Class
    Layton8212 wrote: »
    You talk about Pogba likes hes some kind of De Bruyne, him and Bruno ate attacking minded whos sweeping up on the counter? I guess its upto Maguire and his strength and positioning to keep you solid @Tornado31619 im back for ultimate fut champs and abit of football talk, im here to be entertained

    Pogba isn't an attacking midfielder, wrong again.

    Pogba on his day, is second to KDB in terms of ability/what he can produce/show in terms of creativity from the midfield.

    on the counter there's this position called holding midfielder which normally Matic, Mctominay take up... and if not, unsure if you kow of this but there's a thing called defence that help with that also, Maguire isn't the only one in that (once again, wrong).

    Ultimate fut champs needs to clear off asap clearly, bringing the people that talk about football like it's fifa back.
Sign In or Register to comment.