EA: They’re not loot boxes, they’re “surprise mechanics,” and they’re “quite ethical”

Comments

  • Str8hii
    844 posts Semi-Pro
    She said enjoyable to people ask people if they enjoyed it after spending 20 $ for kagawas and gk no suprise there
  • EekAlaska
    1407 posts Professional
    From the BBC's website tonight, reporting discussions today in a British government meeting about gaming

    "Both games companies [EA and Epic] were questioned as the government is currently looking into how harmful social media and online gaming can be for young people - its safety plans are known as the Online Harms White Paper.

    EA was asked by the committee about games addiction and how long users could spend playing things like Fifa.

    Shaun Campbell, who is EA's UK manager, said he himself sometimes spent around half an hour a day playing, saying the game was designed "to be engaging and fun to play".

    "We want players to take a healthy and balanced approach to playing games, just like anything else.
    "If you look at Fifa players, they are competitive and some want a career in E-Sports so they practise and spend time playing the game. It's about what feels out of balance for an individual," he added."

    (so no mention of how weekend league "encourages" you to play at least 3 hours a day (assuming no rage quits) over three days of the weekend to qualify you for the best rewards)

    Well said and add to that the weekly objectives and you are pushing 20 hrs a week to access most of the content, not to mention those who also play Squad Battles. All that equals a part time job or more and many NON professionals spend that kind of time on a video game.
  • Liamooo
    883 posts Semi-Pro
    They need to start of asking the consumers not the big wigs suits they send.

    Just one look at a few bank statements after a pack promo and the utter disappointment they experience then ask them did you like your surprise?
  • Renamed12345678
    159 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Str8hii wrote: »
    She said enjoyable to people ask people if they enjoyed it after spending 20 $ for kagawas and gk no suprise there

    I think people need to voice their dissatisfaction on this game. Imagine my little girl playing the game. Disgusting I will never ever allow it.
  • BorussenBernie09
    1282 posts Professional
    edited June 20

    smactastic wrote: »
    I'm no fan of Lootboxes and to be honest not a fan of EA's use of them (despite my 10 years of FUT, I stopped spending cash 3 years ago and enjoy FUT a lot more)

    But what exactly is wrong with the analogy - a few people have said 'You spend 80p on a kinder egg and know what youre getting' or similar. Thats not really true though.

    My son is 2. Yeah he gets a toy in his kinder egg, just the same way I get the advertised level of players in my FIFA pack. And hes just as pissed off when he gets a toy he already has, or a one he doesn't want, as I am when I pack terrible or duplicate players.

    No-one MAKES you buy packs, particularly not with cash. It's a choice. Same way I can buy my 2 year old a toy I know he will like (I guess in this case the equivalent is buying a different game or a player from the transfer market).... but sometimes choose to get him a kinder egg.

    You get at least chocolate, which is more satisfying to me than packing Glik or Kagawa ten Million times. I love chocolate.
  • smactastic
    103 posts Has Potential To Be Special


    You get at least chocolate, which is more satisfying to me than packing Glik or Kagawa ten Million times. I love chocolate.

    EA should consider that.... some free chocolate with every pack... would make me happy too. :D
  • LLLLLZ
    21 posts Last Pick at the Park
    EA just show the world how unethical a company can be when it only cares about money
  • lIlIlIlIlIl
    2806 posts Fans' Favourite
    edited June 20
    As an ex gambler, I can tell you that packing a high rated card (icon, Ronaldo, etc) is the exact feeling you get when you win a jackpot. I've won dozens of jackpots at casinos (highest was 20k).

    The only difference, is you don't log off fifa with pockets full of cash. With fp, you can never really "win". If you spend $500 on fp and pack 5mil in coins you still lost...

    And any attempts to "redeem" your winnings in the real world will result in a ban or account wipe. :joy:
    Not many company’s can sell absolute garbage at a premium price and tell u that u actually don’t own it lol
    How they keep getting away with it I don’t know surely sooner or later something has got to give

    They're practically selling air (nothing) and charge a premium for it. I don't understand people who cave to it and enable this scheme. What you are doing here is that you're setting a standard for what these crooks can get away with. Intrinsically leading to a gaming experience just like FIFA is today.
    - Atrocious, neglected gameplay and full-on football-themed card collecting casino.

    I absolutely abhor people who feed this system because ultimately they allow EA to become what they are.
  • CharlieC
    5911 posts Big Money Move
    'Surprise mechanics' :lol:

    We aren't surprised when we get the 82 rated GK from our Ultimate Pack.

    At least with a Kinder Egg you get the chocolate.
  • Derryboy1893
    3542 posts National Call-Up
    Big difference is when I buy a kinder egg I'm getting a chocolate egg to eat plus a surprise, fifa pack I get only the surprise
  • FCBlunt
    1761 posts Play-Off Hero
    Here we see a wild EA shill in its natural habitat(just on the edge of being fired), trying to convince everyone that we’re having fun.

    “Cant you see the community is enjoying it!”
    Forum on the daily: Rant, rant, rant, rant, rant.
    Reddit/twitter/youtube: raaaaaaaant!

    “Dont mind them, they just dont know that they enjoy it.”
  • Dutchcaliber
    2750 posts Fans' Favourite
    smactastic wrote: »
    I'm no fan of Lootboxes and to be honest not a fan of EA's use of them (despite my 10 years of FUT, I stopped spending cash 3 years ago and enjoy FUT a lot more)

    But what exactly is wrong with the analogy - a few people have said 'You spend 80p on a kinder egg and know what youre getting' or similar. Thats not really true though.

    My son is 2. Yeah he gets a toy in his kinder egg, just the same way I get the advertised level of players in my FIFA pack. And hes just as pissed off when he gets a toy he already has, or a one he doesn't want, as I am when I pack terrible or duplicate players.

    No-one MAKES you buy packs, particularly not with cash. It's a choice. Same way I can buy my 2 year old a toy I know he will like (I guess in this case the equivalent is buying a different game or a player from the transfer market).... but sometimes choose to get him a kinder egg.

    your analogy is about as stupid as ea's analogy. your son is 2 years old and you base your opinion on what a 2 year old feels. if a 2 year olds gets his food 15 minutes later he is pissed off aswell.

    besides that most people buy the kinder egg for the chocolate not for the toy thats inside. also the egg costs less than a dollar and you own it, while a 100k pack is 20(!) bucks. 3 100k packs are a full priced game. how can you even justify this??
  • madwullie
    4006 posts National Call-Up
    Staxdoobie wrote: »
    The important thing to note in the ethicality debate is that EA are both odds-setters AND arbiters of what goes in your packs. That's the crux.

    When you place a bet with a bookmaker, they don't determine the outcome (let's not get into the whole match-fixing debate, that's a different argument). But EA do. They give you your odds, but are also able to control what you get. THAT is not ethical.

    Yeah this is a good point.

    I feel a better analogy re the kinder egg thing would be a packet of football stickers or pokémon cards. In that case you only get the cards - with the egg as others pointed out you get chocolate too
  • CharlieC
    5911 posts Big Money Move
    Staxdoobie wrote: »
    The important thing to note in the ethicality debate is that EA are both odds-setters AND arbiters of what goes in your packs. That's the crux.

    When you place a bet with a bookmaker, they don't determine the outcome (let's not get into the whole match-fixing debate, that's a different argument). But EA do. They give you your odds, but are also able to control what you get. THAT is not ethical.

    I see what you mean but if the programming was set up to be completely random based on the odds then they are not controlling what you get in literal terms, the coding will decide at random. Whether you believe that is up to you but this is their argument.

    There's a lot of anecdotal evidence of players who haven't played for a while getting good packs as well as those who are new to the game (I've seen it at first hand with my son) but it's just that, anecdotal. If the game was fully audited, would they find a player retention/new player boost coding? I don't know but if they are trying to be fully transparent and continue to sell 'surprise mechanics' lol, then maybe the time is now to come clean.
  • Staxdoobie
    407 posts Sunday League Hero
    CharlieC wrote: »
    if the programming was set up to be completely random based on the odds then they are not controlling what you get in literal terms, the coding will decide at random

    In which case, the issue is how well this coding is regulated or monitored by a non-EA third party. I have no idea if their pack coding is regulated in this way, but if it isn't, it should be. The coding isn't truly deciding anything at random if they're telling it what to do.
  • Derryboy1893
    3542 posts National Call-Up
    Big difference is when I buy a kinder egg I'm getting a chocolate egg to eat plus a surprise, fifa pack I get only the surprise

    Also if I don't like my surprise I can swap it with a friend for nothing, it's mine and I own it and can do what I like with it
  • Rich2015
    121 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    At the end of the day its not just EA that are to blame here

    The community are partly to blame for this by accepting it.The Battlefront community stood up and it changed things.I see post's on here with people actually defending the gambling and its just bizzare.

    This game would have got a lot better if the community had rode the wave that battlefront 2 created and stood up to these greedy unethical practices.

    Fifa 19 is a shambles and its a product of greed

    The game could be balanced and fair without the pay for an advantage and gambling with it being more balanced in favour of player enjoyment if EA needed this to sell copies of Fifa....Just like games used to be






  • Sykesy
    4205 posts National Call-Up
    Dynamic difficulty doesn’t exist
    Loot boxes don’t exist

    Millions across the world who buy and play the game know the above exist yet EA will tell the puppets and muppets to disperse utter lies to the paying customer
  • EricVanDerek
    672 posts An Exciting Prospect
    In FIFA, there are three ways to getting better players:
    1) playing and performing well, particularly in Rivals / WL (less so in SB and Online matches)
    2) trading
    3) buying packs (and getting lucky)

    Those better players then help with 1 above, which help getting better players - it's completely cyclical...

    A game between two equally good gamers will be determined by the relative quality of the players used (or, maybe that's better phrased as "should be determined"..._

    Absolutely - we can trade to better players. But that also takes time.
    (and indeed, having better players also helps with trading - it's easier (and quicker) to make coins when you have more coins to begin with.)

    I totally agree that we are not "forced" to play more. But that's why I specifically used the phrase "encouraged".

    I've advocated having some competitions where you are given players to use. Yes, of course that's not in EA's interest, as it doesn't encourage people spending money on packs to get better players, but it does mean a level playing field between players.

    I do find it strange that the UK government are questioning Epic and EA (where the most focus appears to be on FIFA) at the same time in relation to loot boxes etc. In Fortnite (particularly the Battle Royale mode), spending money on loot boxes has no impact on how well you do in game - it's purely cosmetic. The opposite is the case for FIFA.

    The problem with the kinder egg analogy is that getting a "good" kinder egg surprise (I've no idea what this would be - let's say a truck) does not then mean that it is easier for you to then get the best surprise in the future (let's say a miniature figure of EA Andy).


    Sorry for the dissertation...
  • TheMightyBee
    2035 posts Fans' Favourite
    Staxdoobie wrote: »
    CharlieC wrote: »
    if the programming was set up to be completely random based on the odds then they are not controlling what you get in literal terms, the coding will decide at random

    In which case, the issue is how well this coding is regulated or monitored by a non-EA third party. I have no idea if their pack coding is regulated in this way, but if it isn't, it should be. The coding isn't truly deciding anything at random if they're telling it what to do.

    That's the key point, it needs to be checked and monitored and transparent to the people spending the money.
  • CharlieC
    5911 posts Big Money Move
    Staxdoobie wrote: »
    CharlieC wrote: »
    if the programming was set up to be completely random based on the odds then they are not controlling what you get in literal terms, the coding will decide at random

    In which case, the issue is how well this coding is regulated or monitored by a non-EA third party. I have no idea if their pack coding is regulated in this way, but if it isn't, it should be. The coding isn't truly deciding anything at random if they're telling it what to do.

    Coding has no regulation in those terms. The difficulty is proving that it's manipulated because randomness is just that. Some people can be randomly lucky and others randomly unlucky. So you can refute any manipulation argument just by using the word 'random'. It would take them to be investigated for the coding to be scrutinised and that isn't going to happen, so we'll never know.
  • Staxdoobie
    407 posts Sunday League Hero
    CharlieC wrote: »

    Coding has no regulation in those terms...

    It would take them to be investigated for the coding to be scrutinised and that isn't going to happen, so we'll never know.

    I can't believe this will stay the case indefinitely. A company that offers rewards for money based on chance, but which then determines those rewards ITSELF, can't be allowed to operate unmonitored forever.

    The same party setting the odds AND controlling the outcome is a conflict of interest, and a mechanic that they are able to manipulate to their advantage whenever they want.

    Agreed, proving manipulation is the tricky part. One guy opens five packs and gets 3 TOTS, while another guy opens 100 and gets none. Well that's just random, isn't it? Well no, I really don't think it is.
  • madwullie
    4006 posts National Call-Up
    Staxdoobie wrote: »
    CharlieC wrote: »
    if the programming was set up to be completely random based on the odds then they are not controlling what you get in literal terms, the coding will decide at random

    In which case, the issue is how well this coding is regulated or monitored by a non-EA third party. I have no idea if their pack coding is regulated in this way, but if it isn't, it should be. The coding isn't truly deciding anything at random if they're telling it what to do.

    That's the key point, it needs to be checked and monitored and transparent to the people spending the money.

    I think this will happen if they're properly regulated re gambling, but I imagine this is one of the reasons that they don't want to be regulated as gambling - as well as the leap to an 18 rating
  • Anarki301
    273 posts Sunday League Hero
    Packs are not random, that's out of question, and it wouldn't be difficult for some third party regulator to check and confirm this, EA have all the information, or have the ability to provide information about all packs and pulled cards, and then it would be easy to check and establish any given point on how packs work.
  • NornIron
    11023 posts Has That Special Something
    Panini cards etc you can sell for real money, Even with kinder eggs. FIFA spending real money on something of no value unless they make it that you can buy and sell on a auction site.
  • emylonas
    799 posts Semi-Pro
    I have just read the part where they said it’s like Kinder eggs and Hatchimals.

    That’s one of those statements that makes you think “They are either liars or incompetent.”

    When you buy a Kinder egg, it is a surprise to the extent that you don’t know exactly the item you’ll get. But you do know it will be a crappy plastic little Because the advertizing days so, and the packaging is very clear that what’s inside is a Kinder toy and you know that all kinder toys are crappy. There are. o differences between them in value.

    In FUT, they do everything they can to make tour brain believe it you will get a fantastic card (by putting CR7, Neymar, Dybala on the cover of the pack), but then you get Kagawa or Bas Dost.
    * If one doesn't understand that brain mechanism, please read “Thinking Fast and Slow” by Daniel Kahneman or “Nudge” by Richard Thaler. Those guys won Nobel prizes in Economics for identifying those very brain mechanisms. Those books are the basics for Marketing and Customer Behavior Masters and Doctorates... so marketers know them very well and know how to exploit them.

    So, going back to Kinder eggs, for that analogy to be true, Kinder eggs would have to advertise saying that inside the Kinder egg, there could be a diamond, and be packaged in a Tiffany’s package with a shiny diamond image on it.
  • madwullie
    4006 posts National Call-Up
    edited June 20
    NornIron wrote: »
    Panini cards etc you can sell for real money, Even with kinder eggs. FIFA spending real money on something of no value unless they make it that you can buy and sell on a auction site.

    That's what they're trying to avoid though, becuase if the in game items have real world value (legally, not selling coins against the game's ToCs) then they fall foul of most countries' gambling laws, which means properly regulated and no 3+ age rating or whatever it currently has
  • They are pretty much comparing packs to Kinder Eggs. So deserpate it's funny
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