Talking Points #3 - When's The Right Time To Sack a Manager

Alastair
10061 posts Moderator
edited February 11
KAuNN7q.png

Welcome to this weeks edition of Talking Points. Last week's discussion seemed to echo the footballing world as everyone had differing views on VAR. This week's issue is likely to be equally divisive.

Chelsea are facing calls to sack Mauricio Sarri after yesterday's humiliating defeat at the hands of reigning champions and this season's title favourites Manchester City, yet is this the right move to make?

When Pep Guardiola started out at Manchester City they started poorly but no-one thought he should be sacked and instead people were saying he just needed more time to implement his philosphies. Across Manchester, Sir Alex Ferguson took half a decade to win his first trophy whereas his successor David Moyes was deposed in less than a season.

In the NFL coaches are rarely sacked after a single season and instead given more time to implement their philosophies but a similar practice is rarely seen in modern day football.

So how long is long enough? Should managers be guaranteed a job for a number of seasons before being sacked? Debate your views on the right time to sack a manager below in this edition of Talking Points.



Previous Talking Points:
#1 Should FA Cup Replays Be Scrapped?
#2 To VAR or not to VAR?"
#3 When's The Right Time To Sack a Manager




If you have an idea for a future Talking Points topic please send me a PM.

Comments

  • mdizzl3
    12407 posts Has That Special Something
    ASAP IMO.
  • Ahmer50x
    18129 posts World Class
    The board should sack a manager the moment they don't trust him enough to back his decision making.

    Plus, it really depends on the remit. If you're appointed to keep a club up this season and not really worry about long term and you lose every match for two months, the club is right to make a change. If you're appointed to re-tool the entire philosophy of the club, I'd say two seasons is the magic number. If I can't begin to see the fruits of your labor after two years, you're probably ****.
  • WWFC24Clarets
    187 posts Sunday League Hero
    If there is improvements from the team and there are starting to show on the pitch but not getting the best results arent deserved to be sacked. The managers that doesnt start making an impact and having a bad run of results deserved to be sacked. In some cases waiting could become productive
  • SuperRob
    1491 posts Professional
    I dont think managers should have a set number of seasons before being sacked. Lets be honest, this iteration of fifa has been rubbish especially the gameplay so now would be a good time to sack the managers in charge of gameplay and the one for releasing icons 😂
  • Clancy
    7755 posts League Winner
    I'd say when the team's two biggest league losses in 25 years occur within 2 weeks..... its a pretty good time to axe him
  • RayS
    25586 posts Player of the Year
    Never
  • They should be treated as players. While they have contract they should stay. The managers are not garbage to be sacked when ever owners want that.
  • Kove
    4019 posts National Call-Up
    edited February 12
    On average, an in-season replacement of the manager has zero effect on performances, either during the season or in the long run. -- https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/sacking-managers-pointless-stats-slaven-bilic-west-ham-premier-league-a8044586.html
    Sacking the manager is a ritual, football’s version of the Aztecan human sacrifice. When the team does badly, he goes. https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/soccernomics-does-sacking-manager-actually-make-difference#xshKD6x1hLth4W76.99

    And every other one I have read.

    Doesn't work, is ridiculous egotistical bollocks.

    The problem with Chelsea is above him, and below him. He has not been there long enough to do anything good or bad.
  • chelsea need to sack sarri
  • DaVeYdAvE1187
    26 posts Last Pick at the Park
    Wen they keep losing
  • Currieman
    4945 posts National Call-Up
    I personally think that most managers are sacked too quickly. However It does depend on the individual circumstances of the club.

    Look at De Boer at Palace. Sacked after 4 games, everyone saying it was incredibly early but then Hodgson comes in and completely changes everything and Palace are looking much better now so you'd say that was the right time to sack him.

    I just think chairmen should have a bit more faith in managers and keep them for the long term. Burnley started the season badly but you didn't see them sacking Sean Dyche.
  • tilen11
    5042 posts Big Money Move
    chelsea need to sack sarri

    Guy has zero support from the board, cant sign players he likes etc. You cant expect results.
  • VagisilFC
    1417 posts Play-Off Hero
    Ideally not 5 months out from a World Cup, and especially when the manager has been successful with the group of players climbing world rankings to an all time high................

    But apparently the corrupt personalities on the board of the FFA know better
  • Clancy
    7755 posts League Winner
    tilen11 wrote: »
    chelsea need to sack sarri

    Guy has zero support from the board, cant sign players he likes etc. You cant expect results.

    I see some criticisms leveled that are hard to argue with. Folks saying his Sarri-ball formation/tactics are too rigid and can be effectively countered. Pretty stark example in the two city matches, worked in Dec. but this time City had them figured out and it was a slaughter


    and the n'golo kante decision baffles me a bit. You've got a player widely regarded as the best holding mid in the world. Won the league in 2016, again 2017, world cup in 2018 all as a holding mid but Sarri refuses to play him there because he doesn't have the "technical ability" for a Sarri-ball central mid. Somewhat similar to Jose mourinho trying to get Pogba to fit his defensive hard working style; you've got a world renowned player who is great at what he does... why not set up a system where he can shine?

    You can say both of those managers weren't getting total transfer control, but at some point if the players aren't adapting and succeeding then it's time to make a change. Sarri seems to be going to Jose route of saying "this is how I play, if only the management would sign players that fit my system I'd be doing great"

  • tilen11
    5042 posts Big Money Move
    Clancy wrote: »
    tilen11 wrote: »
    chelsea need to sack sarri

    Guy has zero support from the board, cant sign players he likes etc. You cant expect results.

    I see some criticisms leveled that are hard to argue with. Folks saying his Sarri-ball formation/tactics are too rigid and can be effectively countered. Pretty stark example in the two city matches, worked in Dec. but this time City had them figured out and it was a slaughter


    and the n'golo kante decision baffles me a bit. You've got a player widely regarded as the best holding mid in the world. Won the league in 2016, again 2017, world cup in 2018 all as a holding mid but Sarri refuses to play him there because he doesn't have the "technical ability" for a Sarri-ball central mid. Somewhat similar to Jose mourinho trying to get Pogba to fit his defensive hard working style; you've got a world renowned player who is great at what he does... why not set up a system where he can shine?

    You can say both of those managers weren't getting total transfer control, but at some point if the players aren't adapting and succeeding then it's time to make a change. Sarri seems to be going to Jose route of saying "this is how I play, if only the management would sign players that fit my system I'd be doing great"

    Sure I agree. But I also agree that every manager should have maximum support from the owners if they expect results.

    Pep even though City have tons of cash has their full support. He has control over transfers and thats how it should be.

    Klopp has full control in our club too. He said that he wouldnt sign with us unless owners would dismantle that stupid transfer committee. Rodgers for example gad to choose between players that they said are avaliable. It just doesnt work that way.

    Pochettino has full control etc.

    Managers should have full control over transfers. If managment expects results you just have to give your manager time and money so that they can build squads with players that fit their system. Just my opinion.
  • Crow
    222 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    I agree managers should have full control over Transfers but that said with Sarri Chelsea have tried to bring in the players he wants, Jorginho for example. They added two more but what is the most frustrating thing at Chelsea is Sarri has no plan B, in his system if you do not press you might as well go home, imo they need to go back to a 343 system which won Chelsea the title.

    Sarri-Ball imo won't work in the prem as the English game is played much faster. Half of Chelsea's players are not doing the pressing anyway so why continue with a system your players can't or won't do? You either sack all the players (good luck with that) or you sack the manager. Chelsea need to finish in the top 4 this season what would you do? Keep everything the same in the hope Chelsea will turn it around? Or take a gamble on someone coming in will have a better stab at it, both ways have risks but I would go for the latter.

    Sarri-ball was working at the start of the season and Chelsea have beaten City a few weeks ago but you would have to be blind to not see the decline in the play. Sarri-Ball has been found out and is easily countered as shown by Bournemouth!!! Uneducated people think it is easy managing a top flight club but it 'aint especially for a manager. Nowadays a team lower down the league will get more time but serving a club like Ferguson or Wenger have long gone.

    Pep might have been given a little extra but not much and if City was losing 4-0 and 6-0 I bet the fans would say something about it. If Chelsea had lost 2 or even 3-0 I bet this would be such an issue but it is more the manner of the defeat than the scoreline, Chelsea themselves were at fault for the most of the goals and that is taking nowt away from City who are awesome and I'm an admirer of De Bruyne and Aguero.

    City learnt from their previous defeat by Chelsea and spread themselves wide, Sarri had no answer, they just couldn't press. Pep himself has said it is a difficult system to play. imo is Sarri-ball had any chance it would have been in the January transfer window, where Chelsea could bring in the players to play the system January has gone and the one player who was brought in is on loan and a striker Chelsea needed more. His chance has gone if the board do not sack him they are writing off this season when we could have a chance of a top 4 finish.

    And lastly why won't Sarri play Hudson-Odoi? The fans love him, he can play on the left or right and other players like Pedro and Willian are declining. So in answer to the question there should be no time limit on when to sack a manager and it is when a team starts getting beaten heavily and/or when the system is shown to be left wanting that he should go.
  • Skboseph
    318 posts Sunday League Hero
    Use Chelsea as a reference tool
  • tilen11
    5042 posts Big Money Move
    edited February 13
    Crow wrote: »
    I agree managers should have full control over Transfers but that said with Sarri Chelsea have tried to bring in the players he wants, Jorginho for example. They added two more but what is the most frustrating thing at Chelsea is Sarri has no plan B, in his system if you do not press you might as well go home, imo they need to go back to a 343 system which won Chelsea the title.

    Sarri-Ball imo won't work in the prem as the English game is played much faster. Half of Chelsea's players are not doing the pressing anyway so why continue with a system your players can't or won't do? You either sack all the players (good luck with that) or you sack the manager. Chelsea need to finish in the top 4 this season what would you do? Keep everything the same in the hope Chelsea will turn it around? Or take a gamble on someone coming in will have a better stab at it, both ways have risks but I would go for the latter.

    Sarri-ball was working at the start of the season and Chelsea have beaten City a few weeks ago but you would have to be blind to not see the decline in the play. Sarri-Ball has been found out and is easily countered as shown by Bournemouth!!! Uneducated people think it is easy managing a top flight club but it 'aint especially for a manager. Nowadays a team lower down the league will get more time but serving a club like Ferguson or Wenger have long gone.

    Pep might have been given a little extra but not much and if City was losing 4-0 and 6-0 I bet the fans would say something about it. If Chelsea had lost 2 or even 3-0 I bet this would be such an issue but it is more the manner of the defeat than the scoreline, Chelsea themselves were at fault for the most of the goals and that is taking nowt away from City who are awesome and I'm an admirer of De Bruyne and Aguero.

    City learnt from their previous defeat by Chelsea and spread themselves wide, Sarri had no answer, they just couldn't press. Pep himself has said it is a difficult system to play. imo is Sarri-ball had any chance it would have been in the January transfer window, where Chelsea could bring in the players to play the system January has gone and the one player who was brought in is on loan and a striker Chelsea needed more. His chance has gone if the board do not sack him they are writing off this season when we could have a chance of a top 4 finish.

    And lastly why won't Sarri play Hudson-Odoi? The fans love him, he can play on the left or right and other players like Pedro and Willian are declining. So in answer to the question there should be no time limit on when to sack a manager and it is when a team starts getting beaten heavily and/or when the system is shown to be left wanting that he should go.

    He couldnt bring in players in January because he cant. He couldnt buy Higuain, he only managed to get him on loan. He has no support from the board. Invest if you want results, otherwise f off. What did they expect when they brought in a manager who plays in a way entirely different from the way the players are used to playing? Adding Higuain and Jorginho to the squad isn't going to magically transform Chelsea into Napoli when the vast majority of the squad are used to playing variants of counter-attacking football.

    Sarri will also probably be fired due to the fact he is too intelligent for Chelsea. Said the same thing Jose and Conte were saying, that players of Chelsea are hard to motivate, that they have no desire to play etc. Players are also to blame since they cant act like proffessionals and play a system that doesnt look good to them. Ffs you are a paid footballer, play how your manager tells you. Whole team needs a rebuild. So far he bought a goalkeeper who they needed anyway, Jorginho, Pulisic (still on loan at Borussia) and Higuain on loan. He literally bought 1 player that he wanted.

    He needs time to build his own squad. If he doesnt get enough time and finances, there will be no results.

    Same thing happened with Conte. He won the league since he was playing a 3atb formation that nobody used in PL and nobody really knew the formation that well to counter it. After he won the league, he started rebuilding the squad as was his vision since he knew in order to play 352 you need specific players and he knew he wont be able to replicate last season because teams now know how to play against them. He didnt get any funds, Chelsea were losing games, finished 5th and he was sacked. I mean great job Abramovich. Stupid dic*
    Post edited by tilen11 on
  • SC_Nankatsu_Mr_Vu
    325 posts Sunday League Hero
    TBH i think community managers, Corey and Zaro should have been sacked a long time ago but i think they wount get fired during the cycle
  • Stevie_G
    1007 posts Professional
    Been following along these threads for a couple of weeks now, thought I'd add my two cents to this as it currently impacts both my two football teams. Some very good posts above.

    Personally I think that certain clubs are too quick on the sack button. Everton specifically have shown for 4-5 years that there are deeper lying problems than just the manager himself. Silva may have shown some poor tendencies thus far, and his insistence on zonal marking is killing all us fans, but sacking him isn't going to magically make us a top 4-6 side. Fans have been baying for Silva's blood for weeks - the same fans that wanted Big Sam out for his horrendous football. Patience is needed, for the time being at least.

    Alike many of you guys above, I would say the same for Sarri. He's a manager who wants to play a certain way. As stubborn as he may be, as you mention, Pep saw a similar fate in his first season, I'll never forget the Everton 4-0 City game where everyone was laughing at 'Fraudiola' and claimed the PL was too much for him. What Pep got, was the financial backing to buy his players and build his squad. Look what happened within 12 months! Abramovich and co need to back Sarri now, give him what he needs and they'll overwhelm most sides even if their playstyle is super predictable.

    On the other hand, I think there are instances where a manager is clearly stifling a football side. For my Melbourne City, our current manager is insistent on negative football - I don't necessarily mind a Mourinho type manager - but you really need to be winning trophies if you wish to play poor football with a good squad.

    So in conclusion, I think the manager is too often the scapegoat, alike the captain in world cricket. Sure, there are times when a manager has just lost the faith of players/fans alike (Jose......) and in those cases their position is untenable. Personally I think United's current issues have actually come from their regular sacking of managers post-Fergie. We saw LVG, Moyes and Mourinho all sign their type of players and now the current squad is a cluster of average players who mightn't fit the current manager's system. Look what happened to Sunderland, successive relegations after thinking that annual sackings just to get survival was a good idea. Some long-term vision is needed in football, especially for big clubs who are at no immediate relegation risk, otherwise we'll see some more United-type cases going from the absolute powerhouse in world football, to a mere top 4 aspirant.
  • Tornado31619
    16946 posts World Class
    Preferably never, unless they manage United.
  • FUTRocky77
    1134 posts Professional
    edited March 3
    Relegation Teams

    Before Winter Transfer Window. and/or around Gameweek 24/25. Give the next manager time to implement and get some consistency going.

    Fight for titles

    Around 2/3 years if they're challenging/ in or around the top.

    Scenarios in which managers need sacking Asap

    -Hierachy Lose trust
    -Not getting best from multiple players
    -Constant rifts between manager and players.
  • wth22
    10009 posts Has That Special Something
    When he's lost the dressing room and the players no longer want to give their best for him.
  • Ahmer50x
    18129 posts World Class
    wth22 wrote: »
    When he's lost the dressing room and the players no longer want to give their best for him.

    Not necessarily.

    If United won the league under Ole and the following season, Pogba and Martial downed tools, I'd rather sell the players and back the manager.

    There are unlimited players out there. As we've learned the hard way, there are few managers that fit a club well.
  • Crow
    222 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    tilen11 wrote: »
    Crow wrote: »

    He couldnt bring in players in January because he cant. He couldnt buy Higuain, he only managed to get him on loan. He has no support from the board. Invest if you want results, otherwise f off. What did they expect when they brought in a manager who plays in a way entirely different from the way the players are used to playing? Adding Higuain and Jorginho to the squad isn't going to magically transform Chelsea into Napoli when the vast majority of the squad are used to playing variants of counter-attacking football.

    Sarri will also probably be fired due to the fact he is too intelligent for Chelsea. Said the same thing Jose and Conte were saying, that players of Chelsea are hard to motivate, that they have no desire to play etc. Players are also to blame since they cant act like proffessionals and play a system that doesnt look good to them. Ffs you are a paid footballer, play how your manager tells you. Whole team needs a rebuild. So far he bought a goalkeeper who they needed anyway, Jorginho, Pulisic (still on loan at Borussia) and Higuain on loan. He literally bought 1 player that he wanted.

    He needs time to build his own squad. If he doesnt get enough time and finances, there will be no results.

    Same thing happened with Conte. He won the league since he was playing a 3atb formation that nobody used in PL and nobody really knew the formation that well to counter it. After he won the league, he started rebuilding the squad as was his vision since he knew in order to play 352 you need specific players and he knew he wont be able to replicate last season because teams now know how to play against them. He didnt get any funds, Chelsea were losing games, finished 5th and he was sacked. I mean great job Abramovich. Stupid dic*

    He could've brought in players but the ones he wanted did not want to come. I wouldn't say the board is against him unless you know different? When Sarri first came results were ticking along that was until he got beat 4-0 and then 6-0.

    Sarri is to intelligent for Chelsea, hahaha. Your having a laugh. What has Sarri won with his Sarri-ball? Serie-A is not the Premier league. The Prem is faster but that said for the first half of the season the results were ticking along and then started to go downhill rapidly. Chelsea were lucky to get to the league cup final. That semi against Tottenham Chelsea could have had 5 or 6 goals in the first half because Tottenham had an injury hit team and were clearly struggling but at HT Poch changed to 3 at the back and Chelsea found it hard to counter this and what did your 'intelligent' Sarri do? Nothing, no plan B and Chelsea scrape through on Penalties.

    You say you can't expect Sarri to turn things round overnight but then say the players have got to play the way the manager says, and totally adapt overnight? If Sarri is really intelligent then why doesn't he play his best players? These players that are so hard to motivate won the league a couple of seasons ago. Chelsea have had a couple of good results performances lately so naturally I want Chelsea to go on to win every game or enough to finish 4th but I still have doubts.

    In that Cup final against City where Chelsea could have won it what did Sarri do? He played defensively in the first half (moreso than Jose) ans employed counter attacking. imo for the rest of the season Chelsea should go back to a 3-4-3 att and give 4th place a shot cause I am not confident of 4th place are you? While we are at it do you realise how important 4th place is especially while we have a chance of getting it. Chelsea need to get into the CL to attract new players. Yes Chelsea face a transfer ban but it is likely that the first window will be appealed. Missing the CL cost money, Roman is not as rich as he was.

    You seem to have a short memory with Conte and Jose. It all started to go wrong for Jose when he verbally attacked that female Doc, no need for it. Chelsea players have wives, or some of them do and Jose started to lose the dressing room, is it easier to sack the manager or the players? Then Conte, Conte was struggling at the start of the season and then he stumbled on the 3-4-3 but it was a brilliant formation that could be adapted on the fly. Conte's second season, where he got rid of Costa by text. That was the most unprofessional thing he could of done and then he goes onto tinkering the side and formation so much it stopped working, there was no need it still would of worked.

    You seem to diss Roman but are you honestly saying he hasn't brought success to Chelsea? Since he came Chelsea are one of the most successful teams. I'll admit I think certain managers should have been given longer but you can't argue against success, which would you rather? As for Sarri it is getting near to the point where he can't be sacked for this season but he has got to try for that 4th place and start bring in Hudson-Odoi, Ruben, Emerson and go for it cause Chelsea need that 4th place to go forward imo.
Sign In or Register to comment.