Skill Gap and why its important

1
BlueC
75 posts Park Captain
Just saw a great thread on here, which unfortunately has been deleted. However lets continue the discussion here shall we. Here is firstly a highly recommended video (watch it):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

Alright then. This is the direction fifa has been heading in. What are your thoughts and how do you suggest EA could make this game balanced for all interests?

Comments

  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
  • Kman
    2914 posts Fans' Favourite
    All those sad pros are me this year especially after fifa 18 release was so good and different :(
  • heefmondo
    1567 posts Play-Off Hero
    Kman wrote: »
    All those sad pros are me this year especially after fifa 18 release was so good and different :(

    oh yeah every game pre patch had 10+ goals in it, defenders turned like trucks and goalies saved nothing.
  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    Kman wrote: »
    All those sad pros are me this year especially after fifa 18 release was so good and different :(

    Im right there with you. But kudos to EA for the hustle. Make a very promising game so the 10% (read us on this forum) decides to spend $ on the game due to the believe of longevity. Well played. Gotta give them that.
  • [Deleted User]
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  • Frankenberry
    10214 posts Has That Special Something
    BlueC wrote: »
    Alright then. This is the direction fifa has been heading in.

    I've seen this posted a lot, but how did you come to this conclusion? Can you give specific examples?

    As @sonnyfilth mentioned, there is clearly a significant skill gap when elite players are winning 99%+ of their FUT Champions matches (i.e. matches against other relatively competent opponents that play 20+ hours of FUT per week). Highly skilled players are very regularly winning 40 out of 40 matches against above-average players.
  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    sonnyfilth wrote: »
    la la la la la skill gap la la la la la la

    some players win 40-0

    how can they win 40-0 if there's no skill gap

    ANSWER THE QUESTION

    how can some pro players go 35+ wins with sub 200k teams

    NO SKILL GAP?

    do they eat magic beans?

    you might not be as good at the game as you think you supposedly are, did you ever just consider that

    Sure I can elaborate. First off when we tag out "No skill gap" ofc we do not mean zero skill gap, that would just be stupid. Back to your question: How? they work hard to exploit game mechanics (which I don't mind btw) and they make sure that every position is maxed out in terms of meta players. You pretty much said it yourself, "some pro players". I saw tass do it and big probs to him especially in the light of Hugegorilla failing the same task. Bear in mind these 2 are in my book top 5 in the world. Thats like 0,00001 procent of the player base and it might even be less. This equals your statement to saying that because someone won the lottery that there is a good chance for you to do the same. Did that answer your question or do I need to go into greater depth why the decreased skill gap is a real problem?

    Lastly, I don't view myself as a pro player or anything close to that.

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  • Xtc
    5186 posts Big Money Move
    dont understand the 2 responses above. A skill gap differentiates between ALL levels of player, not just the elite ones vs the rest. At my level, I win games I should lose and I lose games where I should win.
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  • Frankenberry
    10214 posts Has That Special Something
    BlueC wrote: »
    or do I need to go into greater depth why the decreased skill gap is a real problem?

    I think we all agree that decreasing a skill gap can be an issue in gaming. My last post was asking you to show that this phenomenon is actually happening.

    To show something is increasing/decreasing over time, you have to show its level at one point in time vs. its level at another point in time.
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  • Matt_misses_pro
    36 posts Last Pick at the Park
    It was my thread that got removed .. @BlueC ur above post is exactly what I mean .. totally agree
  • Frankenberry
    10214 posts Has That Special Something
    BlueC wrote: »
    But how do you show this? Because showing this objectively can be a very hard.

    I agree, and that's why you shouldn't make wild claims without hard evidence.

    We can't come to conclusions based on how we "feel" vs. how we "felt" several years ago in previous FIFAs. That is a terrible way to argue something.
  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    sonnyfilth wrote: »
    auto defense was stronger last fifa in my opinion

    you see more blocked shots because more people play deep, it's called an evolving meta

    selective memory on rebounds, it goes both ways, citing a few unlucky games isn't hard evidence, they are annoying when it costs you a goal either end which is why we remember them more

    boosted gk's is wrong, shooting exploits are just weaker now, i remember the free headed goals, free near post smashed goals, free finesse outside box goals from previous fifas, now there's no real exploit to shooting, apart from maybe the driven finesse but it's not super guaranteed

    luck is also selective memory, part of theg ame

    I agree it was stronger last Fifa as stated.

    I do get your point but this is not down to selective memory. I cant even remember the last rebound goal Ive scored but just today ive conceded 6 goals like this in 10 games. All games I won so no worries but the amount of stress I get for being up 3-0 is unreal. If i don't adjust my tactics **** hits the fan and ill probably have a close game 10 ig minutes later.

    Boosted GK's are a thing. But lets say your right, then this: Inconsistent GK's. Get any decent pro tilted and they all start complaining about this and I do see why.

    But great reading you were around in previous fifa's. Though im amazed you can't see how much the skill gap has been decreased since back then. There were alot of exploits back then YES but they were consistent and you could count on your selected moves defensively and offensively. Now a perfect postition for intercepting a pass doesn't even mean you actually intercept it, and when you don't you actually gets a disadvantage for doing so cause now your player is out of position.
  • Metalfly
    991 posts Professional
    I think you can certainly make a case for the fact that there are more luck based game mechanics which have increased the randomness factor in a lot of games.

    However it would come down to whether or not this is a problem for EA. While yes you may lose some games due to luck, but if you play enough games logic would dictate that you will win some games due to luck also.

    Now this is in place obviously to entice the more casual players to get involved in online matches, which is absolutely EA's intention! FIFA series have always been a game that EA is trying to push out to the wider mainstream audience, with FUT such a big moneymaker they want to draw as many people to it as possible.

    This might make some of the more hardcore and dedicated players feel like they have less control over the outcome, and they might be especially angry after a loss which they feel they should have won (although you won't feel the same level of anger if you won due to luck). But that's a business decision made by EA, it's all about the retention rate for new players, if you play FIFA FUT for the first time and you get completely spanked, you may not want to play again; however if you get beaten but due to the luck and game mechanics you're made to feel like the game was much closer than it really was, it might motivate you to spend more time and money to improve your team and skill to try again.

    It simply makes more financial sense for EA to lower the skill gap and more accessible.
  • Xtc
    5186 posts Big Money Move
    sonnyfilth wrote: »
    Xtc wrote: »
    dont understand the 2 responses above. A skill gap differentiates between ALL levels of player, not just the elite ones vs the rest. At my level, I win games I should lose and I lose games where I should win.

    that is YOUR OPINION

    none of the match statistics support are factual evidence based on who should win

    idc about your pass accuracy, i lose games with 89% accuracy to 75% accuracy people because they scored more goals

    we're not playing some game where you get points for shots, shots on target, pass accuracy, possession, etc

    goals win games

    you think you should win because you want to tell yourself that you did well

    but if you don't score, you didn't do well

    we're not talking about "super keeper" games or lucky bs deflection goals, random elements are part of the game, can't be eliminated based on how coding and the sport works, could maybe be toned down but that's a different thing

    PTB has been around for how many years

    so have deep d lines, sba mids, etc

    if you haven't realised it and refuse to adapt to it then you aren't as good as you think you are, and i accept that sometimes too when i get mad at someone playing literally 7 back with 3 pacey forwards, then i just try to think of what he did and how to counter it/etc

    And your essay is purely your opinion. I dont recall saying I thought I was good. I am good enough to look at how I played , how I scored, what led to me scoring and what led to my opponent scoring. You fail to analyse when I say i deserve to lose because it does not fit your narrative
  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    BlueC wrote: »
    But how do you show this? Because showing this objectively can be a very hard.

    I agree, and that's why you shouldn't make wild claims without hard evidence.

    We can't come to conclusions based on how we "feel" vs. how we "felt" several years ago in previous FIFAs. That is a terrible way to argue something.

    Oh im talking a account of many people saying the same thing, also why you see alot of people making similar claims. Also im not talking about how I felt back in previous fifas and my win/lose ratios back then etc. Im talking about this game this year and how I can both feel and see when im better than my opponent. But discussion this is, on your premise, pointless because you can't prove this without having access and understanding of the code it self.

    But EA patenting "dynamic difficulty" is a strong indication of a lesser skill gap.
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  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    Metalfly wrote: »
    I think you can certainly make a case for the fact that there are more luck based game mechanics which have increased the randomness factor in a lot of games.

    However it would come down to whether or not this is a problem for EA. While yes you may lose some games due to luck, but if you play enough games logic would dictate that you will win some games due to luck also.

    Now this is in place obviously to entice the more casual players to get involved in online matches, which is absolutely EA's intention! FIFA series have always been a game that EA is trying to push out to the wider mainstream audience, with FUT such a big moneymaker they want to draw as many people to it as possible.

    This might make some of the more hardcore and dedicated players feel like they have less control over the outcome, and they might be especially angry after a loss which they feel they should have won (although you won't feel the same level of anger if you won due to luck). But that's a business decision made by EA, it's all about the retention rate for new players, if you play FIFA FUT for the first time and you get completely spanked, you may not want to play again; however if you get beaten but due to the luck and game mechanics you're made to feel like the game was much closer than it really was, it might motivate you to spend more time and money to improve your team and skill to try again.

    It simply makes more financial sense for EA to lower the skill gap and more accessible.

    Very true!
  • [Deleted User]
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  • These debates still going on really? Theres only 1 skill gap on fifa and thats who can abuse the gameplay the most its been that way mostly since fifa 13 because of terrible developers everything else is out of your control and I'm sorry but a game that has something in the game where one match the game feels sluggish and then the next match the gameplay feel fast and smooth even in single player for chist sake will never ever be considered a skilled game to play.

    Other games like gears of war, unreal tournament and plenty of other games have a way bigger skill gap fifa was once there in the fifa 09 to 12 days but those days are well and truly behind now on fifa and all it takes is for your keeper to dive the wrong way or the ball to go through your keepers hands on fifa 18 to realise that this game is absolutely random and because of that the game will never be took seriously by most people.
  • BlueC
    75 posts Park Captain
    These debates still going on really? Theres only 1 skill gap on fifa and thats who can abuse the gameplay the most its been that way mostly since fifa 13 because of terrible developers everything else is out of your control and I'm sorry but a game that has something in the game where one match the game feels sluggish and then the next match the gameplay feel fast and smooth even in single player for chist sake will never ever be considered a skilled game to play.

    Other games like gears of war, unreal tournament and plenty of other games have a way bigger skill gap fifa was once there in the fifa 09 to 12 days but those days are well and truly behind now on fifa and all it takes is for your keeper to dive the wrong way or the ball to go through your keepers hands on fifa 18 to realise that this game is absolutely random and because of that the game will never be took seriously by most people.

    Its not completely random, but every other point is valid. Sad that those days are over but its just a game anyway. Taking this game too serious is a major insult to ones own intelligence cause you should know better. Perhaps if you get a nice enough time with CR7 up front you could go for top 100 but if not don't bother. Just do casual games with the players you love cause everything else is not worth it no more.
  • Xtc
    5186 posts Big Money Move
    sonnyfilth wrote: »
    Xtc wrote: »
    sonnyfilth wrote: »
    Xtc wrote: »
    dont understand the 2 responses above. A skill gap differentiates between ALL levels of player, not just the elite ones vs the rest. At my level, I win games I should lose and I lose games where I should win.

    that is YOUR OPINION

    none of the match statistics support are factual evidence based on who should win

    idc about your pass accuracy, i lose games with 89% accuracy to 75% accuracy people because they scored more goals

    we're not playing some game where you get points for shots, shots on target, pass accuracy, possession, etc

    goals win games

    you think you should win because you want to tell yourself that you did well

    but if you don't score, you didn't do well

    we're not talking about "super keeper" games or lucky bs deflection goals, random elements are part of the game, can't be eliminated based on how coding and the sport works, could maybe be toned down but that's a different thing

    PTB has been around for how many years

    so have deep d lines, sba mids, etc

    if you haven't realised it and refuse to adapt to it then you aren't as good as you think you are, and i accept that sometimes too when i get mad at someone playing literally 7 back with 3 pacey forwards, then i just try to think of what he did and how to counter it/etc

    And your essay is purely your opinion. I dont recall saying I thought I was good. I am good enough to look at how I played , how I scored, what led to me scoring and what led to my opponent scoring. You fail to analyse when I say i deserve to lose because it does not fit your narrative

    are you saying, in gaming, in anything, the average person is more likely to accept they lost because they got outplayed instead of trying to blame something else?

    it's psychology 101, it's human nature, it doesn't make you stupid, it's just how people are in general

    the game has an objective

    score more goals than your opponent

    whoever scores more goals is better for that game

    you can't assign "job well done" points to the match stats

    if it was too heavily luck influenced pro players wouldn't go 40-0

    the fact they go 40-0 means the game has fundamental mechanics to allow a more skilled player to win more often than not

    not going to argue with you. Clearly there is a result at the end of a game, but if you dont see the difference between games where you create 4 good chances and the GK saves the all and games where you are battered, bet on breakaway and score, then as I said, its a pointless discussion. People are intelligent enough to now HOW they played and compare that to the result they achieved. There are unlucky losses and fortunate wins.
  • Retro_G
    29085 posts Player of the Year
    edited November 2017
    BlueC wrote: »
    Metalfly wrote: »
    I think you can certainly make a case for the fact that there are more luck based game mechanics which have increased the randomness factor in a lot of games.

    However it would come down to whether or not this is a problem for EA. While yes you may lose some games due to luck, but if you play enough games logic would dictate that you will win some games due to luck also.

    Now this is in place obviously to entice the more casual players to get involved in online matches, which is absolutely EA's intention! FIFA series have always been a game that EA is trying to push out to the wider mainstream audience, with FUT such a big moneymaker they want to draw as many people to it as possible.

    This might make some of the more hardcore and dedicated players feel like they have less control over the outcome, and they might be especially angry after a loss which they feel they should have won (although you won't feel the same level of anger if you won due to luck). But that's a business decision made by EA, it's all about the retention rate for new players, if you play FIFA FUT for the first time and you get completely spanked, you may not want to play again; however if you get beaten but due to the luck and game mechanics you're made to feel like the game was much closer than it really was, it might motivate you to spend more time and money to improve your team and skill to try again.

    It simply makes more financial sense for EA to lower the skill gap and more accessible.

    Very true!

    That would've been true in the past, although the game is trying to become an eSport. A big competitive scene will also financially benefit EA.

    Fut isn't only about casuals anymore, gameplay needs to be separated. Fut champs should have skill based gameplay with an actual skill gap, less random factors. They can keep all other modes such as seasons, fut draft, single matches casual with a condensed skill gap.

    It's a win win situation, that way the competitive scene can grow at a fast rate. The casuals can have their sim gameplay, with lots of random factors to keep games close and dramatic.
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  • Robmu22
    1343 posts Professional
    We all have those mates who are absolutely shocking at fifa, we would play them and it would be a complete walk in the park... We could practice skill moves, scoring with keepers etc, etc.

    All of a sudden playing them over the last two iterations has become harder, we still beat them granted, but notice how insanely lucky they start to get and they start to pull off some insane tackles, blocks and interceptions when they dont realise what's going on!

    Bit of an extreme example, i know. But it still aptly applies to the diminishing skill gap.
  • Kman
    2914 posts Fans' Favourite
    Robmu22 wrote: »
    We all have those mates who are absolutely shocking at fifa, we would play them and it would be a complete walk in the park... We could practice skill moves, scoring with keepers etc, etc.

    All of a sudden playing them over the last two iterations has become harder, we still beat them granted, but notice how insanely lucky they start to get and they start to pull off some insane tackles, blocks and interceptions when they dont realise what's going on!

    Bit of an extreme example, i know. But it still aptly applies to the diminishing skill gap.

    When my AI holds my hand it annoys me. The amount of auto blocks and slides...I literally sit their and go “that should’ve been a goal.”

    It annoys me because I know it’s happening for my opponent too and realistically the game should be over before half time...let go of our hands EA and maybe people will start to learn..
  • Xtc
    5186 posts Big Money Move
    i dont reacll sayi
    Kman wrote: »
    Robmu22 wrote: »
    We all have those mates who are absolutely shocking at fifa, we would play them and it would be a complete walk in the park... We could practice skill moves, scoring with keepers etc, etc.

    All of a sudden playing them over the last two iterations has become harder, we still beat them granted, but notice how insanely lucky they start to get and they start to pull off some insane tackles, blocks and interceptions when they dont realise what's going on!

    Bit of an extreme example, i know. But it still aptly applies to the diminishing skill gap.

    When my AI holds my hand it annoys me. The amount of auto blocks and slides...I literally sit their and go “that should’ve been a goal.”

    It annoys me because I know it’s happening for my opponent too and realistically the game should be over before half time...let go of our hands EA and maybe people will start to learn..

    ^^This. I know when im being helped. Its not really helping me.
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