The reason you're not in control of a match

13
FifaVet
65 posts Has Potential To Be Special
I'd like to help everyone to get a better understanding about Football games. This has been posted in the PES forum in 2015. It is too well summed up to be forgotten.


"The " scripting part" actually was pre-programmed in every aspects of a sport football game mechanics. It is in every fiber of the game at any given minute of the game.

The ball physics, collision, trajectory, player momentum does not only follow the rule of real world physics as a simulation as advertised. That rule can be changed almost always to obey another ultimate law of the sport football game:

The Ultimate Rule Of Handicapping And Sabotaging The Player:

Handicap and disadvantage the players so that he always has to be on his toes and bust a gut to a masochistic level. The game designers and programmers seemingly find pleasure in frustrating the player in the most extreme way as possible if they can get away with it.

The Ball Physics And Collision:

In football video game the ball often has its own AI programmed to play favorite the whole match either in impossibly STUBBORNLY REPEATEDLY bouncing back to an opponent feet regardless of player skill of tackling or persistently magnetized to an invincible god-like opponent feet.

The ball physics and behavior is also synchronized with opponent position to dispossess the player or to take control away from him. Your first touch suddenly becomes impossibly bad for no reason at all (even after receive a well-placed and soft pass) which resulted in the ball drifting impossibly away from You or bouncing uncontrollably whenever there was a convenient opponent nearby.

There is a universal law of ball behavior in sport football games: drifting ball, deflected ball. bounced off ball, loosed ball will always be directed to/locked onto opponent running path.

In long passes or crosses, the ball rolling/flying speed will suddenly slow down or speed up in perfect timing to be intercepted by your opponent regardless of your timing, strength of pass and intention, your passing/intercepting skill does not factor. Ball trajectory and velocity is modified by the game engine to meet a chosen player foot or head rather than law of physics.

The AI Team mate:

The sport football game is often a constant playing back of hardwired micro-events built on multiple cheating algorithms to choreograph the positioning, speed and behavior of all players, including your team mates to HANDICAP your skill and SABOTAGE your effort.

There is a perfect invisible and dynamic grid in which the ball and your opponent are mutually locked into each other and choreograph to meet each other at all time, while You were trying to run between them in vain like a headless chicken on a unicycle (due to excessive unrealistic player running momentum, a faked difficulty) on a pre-determined rail (the game always steers your controlled player into absurdly unstoppable paths to ensure a loss of possession, upon receiving the ball, your team mate either refuse to run, run away from the ball or even worse automatically steered unstoppably into the nearest opponent and give the ball to him).

The sport game designers also decided that the player input is severely interfered with to his disadvantage. Player never has real control to his avatars in the game. They are programmed to disobeyed the controls at critical moments. You find yourself constantly and frustratingly wrestling and fighting with your own controller at all time to regain the control.

One of the most important qualities and skills in soccer game is to predict and evade a certain event on the pitch. Even when you predict a certain event is gonna happen, the game prevents you from doing evasive maneuver to avoid it.

There is always delay, dazed, running away from the ball after a tackle. The cursor switched suddenly to another player at the most crucial moment for no apparent reason when it needs to focus on your controlled player the most. Upon receiving a pass, your team mate automatically turns and runs straight into the path of the opponent to be dispossess and You could not stop it.

Pre-determined lock-in mechanics event, in which player has no input in anything:

Your player always keep being delayed by being obstructed by the body of a falling opponent after your successful timing tackle. This is a pre-programmed pattern, not a random event.

After a successful tackle, instead of continuing running towards the loose ball, your player is dazed, confused, the cursor suddenly taken off him or he mysteriously runs away from the ball.

There is always a perceivable pre-programmed distance between your defenders and the opponent strikers with perfect timing so as he can always have plenty of time to evade your tackling as you approached him.

Your players formation is also deliberately pre-programmed to open up for attacks if a goal is needed. Your striker team mates always run into either a least favorite or off-site position, mostly constantly hiding himself behind opponent defenders. This is also a featured handicapping design to limit your chance on goals.

In some impossible and desperate moments, the sliding tackle will be your last resort, but even that effective tackle is also rigged and dubiously interpreted as a foul by an absurd refereeing system (especially the artificial off-side routine forcing on your team mate who deliberately programmed to run offside each and every time).

For a sabotaged consumer/player, there is no sport fairness in sport football games:

The sport football games are full of such annoying unjustifiable locked-in micro-events at every single second of the match, it is so easy to see the pattern of scripting and handicapping after You play a few matches.

In fact, the sport football games are nothing but a series of choreographed animations to create a hallucination that You are in control, but the outcome will never change. Everything is programmed against you in the cheapest manner as possible.

There is little joy and satisfaction to play the sport football games. They are nothing but a permanent annoying chores of user wrestling for an elusive and illusory control, burdened by constant frustrating and infuriating moments of "manufactured" stuff-up by your players or "pre-programmed" inconsistent and biased behaviour of the ball physics and players collisions. It has little or nothing to do with skill, it is just a series of preparing for a next handicapping event to happen to You by the machine.

Comments

  • BiigDee
    4687 posts Big Money Move
    This will be closed soon I expect
  • SaintTodd
    107 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.
  • I swear this is true for only half of people. Me being one...
    But my opponents always seem to be perfectly in charge...
  • To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    I say, how could real AI not be within the grasp? EA make a crap load of money on these Sports titles based on UT alone that they could afford to reinvest. Since the PS2 days can we honestly say that the great leap in AI has been that great in gaming let alone FIFA? Fundamentally these games are very similar they just look a lot nicer.

    These shortcuts programmers have taken in programming their AI are just finally being noticed by more and more people because the games have remained the same for far too long. I am actually happy more people are noticing that the user is not in total control of their success or failure when it comes to executing in game. This should put pressure on not just EA but gaming in general to step their game up.

    They keep wanting us to purchase new consoles every 6 years or so yet the gaming industry makes little effort to improve anything else other than graphics and visuals when it comes to new console generations.
  • I swear this is true for only half of people. Me being one...
    But my opponents always seem to be perfectly in charge...

    I think it is probably more to do with how bad do you want to win? Top players are more willing to exploit game flaws at a more consistent basis in order to achieve the W. For example the constant use of ping pong passing to two speedy forwards.
  • exzoo
    32122 posts National Team Captain
    TL;DR
  • Cooler08
    654 posts An Exciting Prospect
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    What do you define as real AI? Do you think any game has real AI?

  • SuPeRz
    885 posts Semi-Pro
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    Exactly!
  • SaintTodd
    107 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Cooler08 wrote: »
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    What do you define as real AI? Do you think any game has real AI?

    No. Of course not.
    You see the same kinds of nonsense in all games. Playing Civilization on higher difficulties doesn't make the AI any smarter, it just gets more bonuses to production, research and whatnot. That's turn based strategy, where the CPU can take its time and "think". It's unrealistic to think the CPU can think anything like a human in real time. All I ask, is that the game let's me feel like I'm good at the game if I am, and gives me a sense of getting better if I stink, but I'm trying. The way EA codes their sports games, I feel like the better I get at the game, the more it fights me to prevent me from doing what I know will work. I understand this strategy, but I disagree with it. At the end of the day, I play games to PLAY them, not to have them play themselves while giving me some slight sense of control.
  • Dominion
    21 posts Last Pick at the Park
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    What I consider the problem is, is that in offline mode, the user has no control over the AI and thus how the game is played. I had just played and quit a game, where all of a sudden, some of the aspects mentioned by FifaVet came into play,(mainly loosing first touch and dribbling control) ruining my enjoyment in playing this malice of a game. If I could just get fifa to play as it was doing so in the first half and not change, I would never stop playing it. It was challenging and difficult, and I had to use all my skills to stay on top. The adrenaline rush was high. But then when all the cheat modes came in and took my ability to play the game. Frustration and the feeling of deflation came dominant and so I quit.

    It is now getting to the point that I find myself not playing it for long periods of time and am slowly weaning myself from it altogether. My guess is very soon. Even when I win, I feel it is because the AI and game says "your turn" and when it starts playing up and taking away my ability to control my players it says "my turn". I may as well just sim the game and watch it play itself. I perhaps should have done what I was going to do, install Limbo and play that game instead, but I decided to give Fifa 15 "one more go".

    Its getting so bad that now feel I will never consider purchasing Fifa ever again. Even my interest in the real game is waning, after interest brought about by playing fifa.
  • Cooler08
    654 posts An Exciting Prospect
    Dominion wrote: »
    To be fair, it's not like programming real AI is within the grasp of game developers. Of course it's an illusion. I'm just baffled as to why they would deny it. It would make more sense to have an honest conversation with your customers about why they do it the way they do, and what they can do to improve it.

    It is now getting to the point that I find myself not playing it for long periods of time and am slowly weaning myself from it altogether. My guess is very soon. Even when I win, I feel it is because the AI and game says "your turn" and when it starts playing up and taking away my ability to control my players it says "my turn". I may as well just sim the game and watch it play itself. I perhaps should have done what I was going to do, install Limbo and play that game instead, but I decided to give Fifa 15 "one more go".

    Its getting so bad that now feel I will never consider purchasing Fifa ever again. Even my interest in the real game is waning, after interest brought about by playing fifa.

    Fifa 15? Did you mean 17.

    That's a major problem with Fifa 17. There is no satisfaction in winning because when you win you can tell the game is letting you win as the CPU team gives you so much time and space in and around the box, so the game has no competitive edge. Then in other matches, it cranks things the other way, so the CPU team press constantly and pass at a very high tempo, so even getting a shot on goal is challenging.

    Fifa needs Team ID so teams have unique playing styles and there needs to be a consistancy in the AI's performance, so matches have a competitive edge, so it's satisfying when you win a match. For realism's sake, there should of course be matches where the CPU team doesn't play as well as they do other times, but not anything like to the drastic extent it is in Fifa 17.


  • SaintTodd
    107 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    There are plenty of ways the CPU cheats in this game that are perfectly fine. I can accept the refs being biased (it's annoying, of course), and I don't mind the CPU's players being more active and intelligent than mine. But, I draw the line at taking control away of the one player I'm supposed to be controlling at that time. When my player starts moving at a different direction than I'm aiming, or when they take away sprint and have my player jogging to a loose ball when I'm holding down the sprint trigger, that’s not okay.
  • There are plenty of ways the CPU cheats in this game that are perfectly fine. I can accept the refs being biased (it's annoying, of course), and I don't mind the CPU's players being more active and intelligent than mine. But, I draw the line at taking control away of the one player I'm supposed to be controlling at that time. When my player starts moving at a different direction than I'm aiming, or when they take away sprint and have my player jogging to a loose ball when I'm holding down the sprint trigger, that’s not okay.

    How about the time when you tackle but either tmyour defender misses the ball or tackles for the ball to go straight back to your opponent?

    Or how about when you are trying to clear a ball in the box but your player just stands there letting the opposing striker shoot?

    This stuff has gotten so old I think we can all come up with scenarios that we all know are momentum based.
  • 10th4r
    147 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Dominion wrote: »
    Even when I win, I feel it is because the AI and game says "your turn" and when it starts playing up and taking away my ability to control my players it says "my turn".

    This!

    We feel ripped off for the loss of the match when we reckon the computer "cheats" us to get itself the win, but more importantly we feel ripped off for the loss of the feeling that we earned it due to our skill when the computer gifts the win to us.

    One of the major examples in offline Player Career mode is that my team always has the best defence in the league, usually by a laaaaaaaaarge margin (sometimes conceding a mere 5 goals in an entire season; often conceding 4 or 5 times fewer goals than the next best team).
  • 10th4r
    147 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    How about the time when ...

    ...it's the 90th minute and you're in the middle of the field moving up, you point to a player running ahead and press the Through Ball button, only for the AI to decide you meant to pass to your player 30 yards behind, which passes it directly to an opponent who steps around your player and scores an easy goal.

    Or the time when your attacker is standing 2 yards in front of an open portion of goal either barely glances the ball when the ground cross arrives, or the time when he actively takes a step back to avoid being able to intercept it.

    Or all the times when your defender, under no immediate pressure, passes the ball perfectly past the keeper and into the goal...

  • Scotsofrenic
    47 posts Park Captain
    I swear this is true for only half of people. Me being one...
    But my opponents always seem to be perfectly in charge...

    Same here .....
  • NonExistantAI
    60 posts Park Captain
    ' EA make a crap load of money on these Sports titles based on UT alone ' There's your problem. You seem to think EA has morals that they want to make a product worth the money. They make their money and leave guy, always have and will always strive to do so. The less you spend the more you keep.
  • 10th4r
    147 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    How about the time when...

    The other thing that peeves me is when you produce a great through ball to one of your strikers who has broken away and is bearing down on the goal, then they decide that they don't feel like shooting today so they look behind them for someone else to pass to, preferably (according to the AI) someone stuck behind a defender or two, or with a defender in between guaranteed to intercept, or running so far out on the wing they pose an infinitely smaller threat to goal.

  • Sugger
    88 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Plz Some answers to there costumers , im lucky i now this a long time its in the game so can predict Some programmed handicap so i switch to player earlier or just turn back and dont try to lose the ball caus when the ball is being intercepted by the oponement he gets a moral boost and your player gets demoraled ,thats a tip towards player who strugle ,but pls let this ❤️❤️❤️❤️ money making out of the game ea its not fun
  • Sugger
    88 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Sugger wrote: »
    Plz Some answers to there costumers , im lucky i now this a long time its in the game so can predict Some programmed handicap so i switch to player earlier or just turn back and dont try to lose the ball caus when the ball is being intercepted by the oponement he gets a moral boost and your player gets demoraled ,thats a tip towards player who strugle ,but pls let this **** money making out of the game ea its not fun

    Sorry about my bad english xp
  • tzinc
    2248 posts Fans' Favourite
    when you cant even play defense anymore now that legacy defending is not allowed youre no longer in control of half the game and the scripting takes care of the offense ---- ugh
  • SaintTodd
    107 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    tzinc wrote: »
    when you cant even play defense anymore now that legacy defending is not allowed youre no longer in control of half the game and the scripting takes care of the offense ---- ugh

    Cmon, stay on topic. Legacy Defense was the CPU doing it for you, something they copied from PES. Regardless, it's not part of this discussion.
  • Wi1son73
    2944 posts National Call-Up
    10th4r wrote: »
    How about the time when ...

    ...it's the 90th minute and you're in the middle of the field moving up, you point to a player running ahead and press the Through Ball button, only for the AI to decide you meant to pass to your player 30 yards behind,

    This!!!

    I've never know a through to go BACK!! But I have found this happens to me alot :#
  • andreens
    659 posts An Exciting Prospect
    Im thinking,can you become enough good to beat your opponent when game is totally against you?Seen thousands of videos where peoples loosing maches because of evident handi crap but never ever seen any video where somebody actually win one of those maches.To be fair it's possible that those players with better W/L ratio just get less bs than others.And somebody maybe not getting at all?It's because EA need players who will defend them,who will scream that H/S does not exist.Maybe there is some really good player in "Git Gud" team who can make some video where he beats his opponent in mach where he's players can't run,can't pass,falling each over other etc.?
  • andreens
    659 posts An Exciting Prospect
    Im thinking,can you become enough good to beat your opponent when game is totally against you?Seen thousands of videos where peoples loosing maches because of evident handi crap but never ever seen any video where somebody actually win one of those maches.To be fair it's possible that those players with better W/L ratio just get less bs than others.And somebody maybe not getting it at all?It's because EA need players who will defend them,who will scream that H/S does not exist.Maybe there is some really good player in "Git Gud" team who can make some video where he beats his opponent in mach where he's players can't run,can't pass,falling each over other etc.?
  • 10th4r
    147 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    Speaking of the time when..., I currently have a Player Career mode CAM player with Finishing currently at 71 or 72 who frequently shoots anywhere up to about 75 degrees off the direction I thought I aimed. Partly as a result, and partly because I've just moved up a difficulty level and it's always hard at a new level for a while, he's just scored his 2nd ever goal...in his 64th appearance. He has also only made 10 assists.

    I think I kept going that long because I was damned if I was going to stop him with only one goal (I find the first one for each Player Career player tends to be a bit of a gift) and I wanted to find out just how bad it would be!
  • SuPeRz
    885 posts Semi-Pro
    edited January 2017
    andreens wrote: »
    Im thinking,can you become enough good to beat your opponent when game is totally against you?Seen thousands of videos where peoples loosing maches because of evident handi crap but never ever seen any video where somebody actually win one of those maches.To be fair it's possible that those players with better W/L ratio just get less bs than others.And somebody maybe not getting it at all?It's because EA need players who will defend them,who will scream that H/S does not exist.Maybe there is some really good player in "Git Gud" team who can make some video where he beats his opponent in mach where he's players can't run,can't pass,falling each over other etc.?

    I'm not on the EA defense team but I have won some of those ridiculous games but only when the other player is so bad that they still bundled "gifted" chances. Doesn't happen often obviously as you go up the ranks....In div 1 if it's not gonna be your game, the most you can do is grind out a draw.
  • CocoKof
    398 posts Sunday League Hero
    I only play Pro clubs where I have control of one player, the whole match. There are times when my Pro just reacts slowly, sluggish; tries to intercept a pass instead of letting it roll so he can take advantage of the situation (without pressing any button). Long pass? He jumps trying to control a difficult pass and I'm flicking R3...while pushing R2. It doesn't happen every game.

    How do we know what's skill or EA's help?
  • daniiNL
    24 posts Last Pick at the Park
    The majority of the FIFA players don't want competitive, they want to have a good time, have a lot of shots and action near the box and have close results (even when there is a skill gap.) EA won't change this as they will lose a lot of players when they do.
  • SaintTodd
    107 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    daniiNL wrote: »
    The majority of the FIFA players don't want competitive, they want to have a good time, have a lot of shots and action near the box and have close results (even when there is a skill gap.) EA won't change this as they will lose a lot of players when they do.

    But this doesn't make sense. The scripting (am I allowed to say that now? I never imagined this thread would go this long without being deleted?) exists to make the game play like more of a sim. Arcade sports games are usually completely skill based, a la Rocket League. They don't need to create an illusion of being realistic, so they just let you play the game and have fun. If fifa was the arcade game people like to say it is, we wouldn't be having this conversation (and this conversation keeps cropping up, regardless of whether or not these forums allow the topic).
    I think you're right, most people DO want fun and action, but the kind of AI cheating that goes on in fifa is not the way to create fun, it's a way to manage it in a somewhat realistic way.
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