Manchester City FC

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  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Bernardo banned. Pathetic.

    Yeah, imagine coming down hard on racism, so pathetic right?

    It was a silly thing to post publicly, but only because we now live in a society that gives more attention to false racism than actual racism. Why should something like this warrant a ban over the racist chanting that happens every week which goes unpunished?

    It doesn't go unpunished.
  • El_Nino
    3899 posts National Call-Up
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Bernardo banned. Pathetic.

    Yeah, imagine coming down hard on racism, so pathetic right?

    It was a silly thing to post publicly, but only because we now live in a society that gives more attention to false racism than actual racism. Why should something like this warrant a ban over the racist chanting that happens every week which goes unpunished?

    That is some of the worst logic I have ever heard. Every single one of the people changing those things absolutely deserves life time bans from football stadiums, and when identifiable that’s what they tend to get these days, but it’s not so easy to identify every one now is it?

    Silva may not have meant any harm by it, but that doesn’t change the fact he’s sharing a racial stereotype, that will and has offended people, it’s like asking why you can’t use the ‘n’ word in general conversation, just because you don’t see the harm in it(and because it’s isn’t said with malice) doesn’t stop it being offensive to people.

    It’s one thing for things like that to be joked about behind closed doors, it’s another thing to share it to millions of people, it perpetuates the stereotype and while he didn’t mean it maliciously it can still do a lot of damage.

  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    edited November 14
    El_Nino wrote: »
    ViVaWhom wrote: »
    it was a handball tbh

    if the reason VAR gave was that the ball came from bernardos handball, you could see some logic to it, but to not call it hanball because his arm was in natural position is just BS

    This I do agree with it’s a handball from Trent, but irrelevant as it’s a handball from Silva first so no pen, and by the letter of the law the goal can’t be brought back that far

    Yeah. I think TAA's handball is up for debate. I previously believed it was ball to hand, but after seeing a replay like 30 times now, an argument can be put forward that it was a handball, and a penalty. But of course, VAR wouldn't have given a penalty because B.Silva handballed it first, which, under the new laws, would mean a penalty simply could not be given, therefore, the correct debate should be whether the goal should be allowed to stand, or whether a free kick should be given to Liverpool. I think the ref correctly let play go on, as in real time, it all definitely looked very fast and unintentional and there's always VAR who can check it whilst play carries on. Play carried on, and a goal was scored in a new phase of play, so for VAR or the ref to then take it all the way back to a free kick for Liverpool would have been lunacy and arguably could have sparked even more controversy that what actually happened.

    If a penalty was given for City, which all their fans are screeching should have happened, then lol, if Fabinho's goal was controversial, what would that be? :D

    All in all, the ref and VAR got it spot on, imo.

    Either way, it wouldn't have mattered too much. We were clinical whereas City were having an off day in front of goal. We were always going to win the game, but I guess City fans just want something to cling to as an excuse for why we are destroying them this season.
  • Ahmer50x
    19901 posts World Class
    edited November 14


    Wonder how many envelopes were involved here...

    "City’s case was referred to the adjudicatory chamber by the CFCB’s investigatory arm in May and it is widely believed that the latter’s boss, former Belgium prime minister Yves Leterme, recommended a season-long ban for the Premier League champions."
  • Tornado31619
    17832 posts World Class
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Bernardo banned. Pathetic.

    Yeah, imagine coming down hard on racism, so pathetic right?

    It was a silly thing to post publicly, but only because we now live in a society that gives more attention to false racism than actual racism. Why should something like this warrant a ban over the racist chanting that happens every week which goes unpunished?

    That is some of the worst logic I have ever heard. Every single one of the people changing those things absolutely deserves life time bans from football stadiums, and when identifiable that’s what they tend to get these days, but it’s not so easy to identify every one now is it?

    Silva may not have meant any harm by it, but that doesn’t change the fact he’s sharing a racial stereotype, that will and has offended people, it’s like asking why you can’t use the ‘n’ word in general conversation, just because you don’t see the harm in it(and because it’s isn’t said with malice) doesn’t stop it being offensive to people.

    It’s one thing for things like that to be joked about behind closed doors, it’s another thing to share it to millions of people, it perpetuates the stereotype and while he didn’t mean it maliciously it can still do a lot of damage.

    1) There’s a big difference between the N word and what Silva posted.
    2) Just because something offends people, it doesn’t make it racist. People can take anything and search for racist connotations within it, and that appears to be more prevalent than ever these days.
    9e2ef7c6a84606c3-600x338.png
    That’s a t-shirt which was recently released for a now-former African-American WWE wrestler whose on-screen character tended to smile a lot. Once it was made available on the WWE shop, he called out Triple H and Vince McMahon for racism on Twitter (and later announced his departure from the company in another Twitter rant).
    Most WWE t-shirts are black, so you need a bright colour like red to make the lips visible. But he decided to interpret that as a reference to the use of blackface. See? Something not inherently racist has managed to offend somebody.
    Joking about Mendy looking like that character is no different from likening KDB to Tintin.

    I get it, you disagree with me, and that’s fine. But people constantly overreacting to tiny things (IMO) really pisses me off.
  • Tornado31619
    17832 posts World Class
    Ahmer50x wrote: »


    Wonder how many envelopes were involved here...

    "City’s case was referred to the adjudicatory chamber by the CFCB’s investigatory arm in May and it is widely believed that the latter’s boss, former Belgium prime minister Yves Leterme, recommended a season-long ban for the Premier League champions."

    And this is why FFP regulations are not taken seriously.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    edited November 14
    El_Nino wrote: »
    El_Nino wrote: »
    Bernardo banned. Pathetic.

    Yeah, imagine coming down hard on racism, so pathetic right?

    It was a silly thing to post publicly, but only because we now live in a society that gives more attention to false racism than actual racism. Why should something like this warrant a ban over the racist chanting that happens every week which goes unpunished?

    That is some of the worst logic I have ever heard. Every single one of the people changing those things absolutely deserves life time bans from football stadiums, and when identifiable that’s what they tend to get these days, but it’s not so easy to identify every one now is it?

    Silva may not have meant any harm by it, but that doesn’t change the fact he’s sharing a racial stereotype, that will and has offended people, it’s like asking why you can’t use the ‘n’ word in general conversation, just because you don’t see the harm in it(and because it’s isn’t said with malice) doesn’t stop it being offensive to people.

    It’s one thing for things like that to be joked about behind closed doors, it’s another thing to share it to millions of people, it perpetuates the stereotype and while he didn’t mean it maliciously it can still do a lot of damage.

    1) There’s a big difference between the N word and what Silva posted.
    2) Just because something offends people, it doesn’t make it racist. People can take anything and search for racist connotations within it, and that appears to be more prevalent than ever these days.
    9e2ef7c6a84606c3-600x338.png
    That’s a t-shirt which was recently released for a now-former African-American WWE wrestler whose on-screen character tended to smile a lot. Once it was made available on the WWE shop, he called out Triple H and Vince McMahon for racism on Twitter (and later announced his departure from the company in another Twitter rant).
    Most WWE t-shirts are black, so you need a bright colour like red to make the lips visible. But he decided to interpret that as a reference to the use of blackface. See? Something not inherently racist has managed to offend somebody.
    Joking about Mendy looking like that character is no different from likening KDB to Tintin.

    I get it, you disagree with me, and that’s fine. But people constantly overreacting to tiny things (IMO) really pisses me off.

    The fact you think comparing KDB to Tintin is no different shows how uneducated you are on the subject. You’re from Portugal, aren’t you? Makes sense that you’re defending B.Silva, because like B.Silva, you seem very oblivious to what the issue actually is. Must be a cultural difference.
  • Low Ki
    11855 posts Has That Special Something
    edited November 14
    I'm going post what I posted in the WWE thread about that shirt Tornado:

    Sambo imagery. Same reason Bernardo Silvas tweet was racist, so yeah its a pretty racist shirt.

    Must be nice that people ignorant of history can dismiss it as being fine or imaginary. In this case it also specifically linked to an old racist joke about only being able to see a black man's teeth in the dark. It clearly looks like a mouth with his name as the teeth on an all black background.



    Being this blissfully ignorant about a well known racist caricature AND that shirt while further digging down is as bad as Wayne Hennesey's defense for his thing.
  • Tornado31619
    17832 posts World Class
    What? How is my nationality relevant? Do you seriously think I’d be defending him if I genuinely thought he was in the wrong?
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    Low Ki wrote: »
    I'm going post what I posted in the WWE thread about that shirt Tornado:

    Sambo imagery. Same reason Bernardo Silvas tweet was racist, so yeah its a pretty racist shirt.

    Must be nice that people ignorant of history can dismiss it as being fine or imaginary. In this case it also specifically linked to an old racist joke about only being able to see a black man's teeth in the dark. It clearly looks like a mouth with his name as the teeth on an all black background.

    It 100% is a racist shirt. At this point it’s clear that @Tornado31619 isn’t properly educated on the subject, hence he can’t comprehend what the issue is.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    edited November 14
    What? How is my nationality relevant? Do you seriously think I’d be defending him if I genuinely thought he was in the wrong?

    You’re both from Portugal and you both seem to have the exact same view that it’s okay to say/produce stuff like this. I can’t believe you don’t think that shirt is racist, ffs :D you probably think it’s okay that Silva said Mendy was naked because he was wearing black.
  • Tornado31619
    17832 posts World Class
    We’re clearly not going anywhere with this discussion, so let’s just forget about this. If you want to think of me as a racist, go ahead. I’ve got my views and you’ve got yours.

    My line in the sand is that, IMO, both the Tweet and the shirt were dodgy, but neither inherently racist. The Tweet was clearly a light-hearted joke whilst the shirt’s design was meant to reference Myles’s smiley personality. Done. Let’s move on now.
  • Keano
    14198 posts Has That Special Something
    The only thing i think is wrong is the second hand ball, it was a hand ball purely for the fact as the ball was kicked, Trent raises his hand, if he keeps his hand by his side and it hits it, sure it’s ball to hand, but he raises it to make himself bigger and it then hits, therefore handball.

    Might have been 8 yards? Or something like that, but you dont move your arm in the air when the balls being crossed unless you want to block it like that.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    Keano wrote: »
    The only thing i think is wrong is the second hand ball, it was a hand ball purely for the fact as the ball was kicked, Trent raises his hand, if he keeps his hand by his side and it hits it, sure it’s ball to hand, but he raises it to make himself bigger and it then hits, therefore handball.

    Might have been 8 yards? Or something like that, but you dont move your arm in the air when the balls being crossed unless you want to block it like that.

    His other hand did the same movement, and his chest puffed out. I think he anticipated it hitting his chest tbh.
  • arsenalap
    6062 posts Big Money Move
    We’re clearly not going anywhere with this discussion, so let’s just forget about this. If you want to think of me as a racist, go ahead. I’ve got my views and you’ve got yours.

    My line in the sand is that, IMO, both the Tweet and the shirt were dodgy, but neither inherently racist. The Tweet was clearly a light-hearted joke whilst the shirt’s design was meant to reference Myles’s smiley personality. Done. Let’s move on now.

    You arent racist and its pathetic that anyone would insinuate you to be.

    You sound less educated about certain connotations and historic meanings maybe, but that is no fault of your own, it's probably an educational thing.

    Theres no need to make Tornado feel bad for that, shame on you two for doing so tbh. Not everyone has the same backgrounds and educations with regards to certain things..

    Same goes for Silva. Maybe he isn't educated or doesnt know of certain things so he doesnt know it could offend people. That isnt his fault really, it's a bigger issue. He was stupid for doing it in public though.

    Similarly at a big company like WWE someone should be pointing these things out.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    I literally said it was probably a cultural difference. It would be nice if he was more open to learning about it, rather than outright saying we are wrong to think it’s racist.
  • Ahmer50x
    19901 posts World Class
    I'm gonna have to agree with @Tornado31619 to an extent here.

    The constant desire to seek out things to be offended by is maddening.

    Mendy wasn't offended but the FA is for him. Why? It should be none of their **** business
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    edited November 14
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to agree with @Tornado31619 to an extent here.

    The constant desire to seek out things to be offended by is maddening.

    Mendy wasn't offended but the FA is for him. Why? It should be none of their **** business

    I’ve discussed this already earlier. It doesn’t matter if Mendy wasn’t offended. No one thinks Mendy was offended and that’s not the reason for the punishment. He tweeted out a joke which has very negative historical racial connotations to half a million people. If even one kid sees that and now thinks it’s okay to compare his black classmate to a racist cartoon, then that’s already one person too many.
  • Keano
    14198 posts Has That Special Something
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Keano wrote: »
    The only thing i think is wrong is the second hand ball, it was a hand ball purely for the fact as the ball was kicked, Trent raises his hand, if he keeps his hand by his side and it hits it, sure it’s ball to hand, but he raises it to make himself bigger and it then hits, therefore handball.

    Might have been 8 yards? Or something like that, but you dont move your arm in the air when the balls being crossed unless you want to block it like that.

    His other hand did the same movement, and his chest puffed out. I think he anticipated it hitting his chest tbh.

    Oh i get that, but if you make yourself bigger or move your arm/hand towards the ball, then like it or not it is a foul, if he didnt intend to move his arm up then he wouldve kept it by his side, he moved his arm and it hit it, he had his arm by his side which id have said should be ball to hand, but if you move your arm towards where the balls going, intentional or not its a handball... (bare in mind the rule was changed before this season that any ball that hits the arm/hand is a foul, it doesnt have to be intentional anymore), the rules are wrong for that... but imo he moves his hand into the ball therefore to me from the couple of replays I saw, it is handball and looked intentional.
  • arsenalap
    6062 posts Big Money Move
    SDoofus wrote: »
    I literally said it was probably a cultural difference. It would be nice if he was more open to learning about it, rather than outright saying we are wrong to think it’s racist.

    Yh but you're both making him feel bad about it, which I dont think is on imo.

    Yh fair enough but it's not easy to see sometimes.

    To be honest, I think it's a very fine line at the moment between things actually being offensive and people overreacting for some issues. I know people in real life who have done something quite bad and blamed it on their mental health, when I know that there was nothing wrong with them. But it's hard to say that as you dont know what's happening to someone deep down. Not that that's related to the above, just an observation on this generation of people.

    I'm not saying the above two issues are people overreacting. I dont know enough about the WWE one. But the Silva one, I think is purely just a lack of knowledge for Silva. He should just be educated on the situation rather than punished imo.
  • El_Nino
    3899 posts National Call-Up
    edited November 14
    To be clear I in no way think @Tornado31619 is racist.

    Very naive to certain things probably as @Doofus pointed out it’s a cultural thing. 100% that shirt and the image B Silva posted are racist, no way around it they are, they both continue a stereotype, I’m not saying either are done intentionally, but that just doesn’t change the fact that they are harmful.

    @Ahmer50x its really not as simple as that 1 person wasn’t offended, it’s well documented that perpetuating those sort of stereotypes(well any really) can be quite harmful, it’s 2019 people are individuals bla bla bla, so it’s just not great to stereotype(intentionally or not)
  • Ahmer50x
    19901 posts World Class
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to agree with Tornado31619 to an extent here.

    The constant desire to seek out things to be offended by is maddening.

    Mendy wasn't offended but the FA is for him. Why? It should be none of their **** business

    I’ve discussed this already earlier. It doesn’t matter if Mendy wasn’t offended. No one thinks Mendy was offended and that’s not the reason for the punishment. He tweeted out a joke which has very negative historical racial connotations to half a million people. If even one kid sees that and now thinks it’s okay to compare his black classmate to a racist cartoon, then that’s already one person too many.

    I don't believe it is the FA's place to try and tell society what is considered acceptable speech.

    What Bilva puts on social media ought to be between his conscience at best and his employers/people he has a direct relationship with at worst.

    This trend of every institution trying to become judge, jury, and executioner for everyone they ever come into contact with drives me mad.

    We have laws and there are institutions designated to enforce those laws. Every private institution/person furthermore has the right to associate with people or not.

    I don't like the idea of leagues or social media mobs or whoever else that isn't directly involved trying to restrict the rights of other people.

    In the NFL, we get players banned from playing for off field stuff when the courts clear them (or even before the courts have had a chance to rule) and it drives me insane. It's just not a league's place to be making these decisions IMO, sorry.

    Bernardo's behavior is his problem ideally and at worst it is Man City's since they pay him and probably have a conduct clause in his contract. If Man City is happy, Bernardo is happy, and Mendy is happy then I'm opposed to any league action regardless of how racist whatever Bilva had said happened to be.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to agree with Tornado31619 to an extent here.

    The constant desire to seek out things to be offended by is maddening.

    Mendy wasn't offended but the FA is for him. Why? It should be none of their **** business

    I’ve discussed this already earlier. It doesn’t matter if Mendy wasn’t offended. No one thinks Mendy was offended and that’s not the reason for the punishment. He tweeted out a joke which has very negative historical racial connotations to half a million people. If even one kid sees that and now thinks it’s okay to compare his black classmate to a racist cartoon, then that’s already one person too many.

    I don't believe it is the FA's place to try and tell society what is considered acceptable speech.

    What Bilva puts on social media ought to be between his conscience at best and his employers/people he has a direct relationship with at worst.

    This trend of every institution trying to become judge, jury, and executioner for everyone they ever come into contact with drives me mad.

    We have laws and there are institutions designated to enforce those laws. Every private institution/person furthermore has the right to associate with people or not.

    I don't like the idea of leagues or social media mobs or whoever else that isn't directly involved trying to restrict the rights of other people.

    In the NFL, we get players banned from playing for off field stuff when the courts clear them (or even before the courts have had a chance to rule) and it drives me insane. It's just not a league's place to be making these decisions IMO, sorry.

    Bernardo's behavior is his problem ideally and at worst it is Man City's since they pay him and probably have a conduct clause in his contract. If Man City is happy, Bernardo is happy, and Mendy is happy then I'm opposed to any league action regardless of how racist whatever Bilva had said happened to be.

    But when he tweeted that, it was instantly met with hundred and hundreds of comments highlighting that it was very racist. Kick it out even came out and condemned it. You can’t expect the FA not to take action, considering.
  • SDoofus
    6077 posts Big Money Move
    Silva going unpunished for this sends out a very dangerous message.
  • Ahmer50x
    19901 posts World Class
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    SDoofus wrote: »
    Ahmer50x wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to agree with Tornado31619 to an extent here.

    The constant desire to seek out things to be offended by is maddening.

    Mendy wasn't offended but the FA is for him. Why? It should be none of their **** business

    I’ve discussed this already earlier. It doesn’t matter if Mendy wasn’t offended. No one thinks Mendy was offended and that’s not the reason for the punishment. He tweeted out a joke which has very negative historical racial connotations to half a million people. If even one kid sees that and now thinks it’s okay to compare his black classmate to a racist cartoon, then that’s already one person too many.

    I don't believe it is the FA's place to try and tell society what is considered acceptable speech.

    What Bilva puts on social media ought to be between his conscience at best and his employers/people he has a direct relationship with at worst.

    This trend of every institution trying to become judge, jury, and executioner for everyone they ever come into contact with drives me mad.

    We have laws and there are institutions designated to enforce those laws. Every private institution/person furthermore has the right to associate with people or not.

    I don't like the idea of leagues or social media mobs or whoever else that isn't directly involved trying to restrict the rights of other people.

    In the NFL, we get players banned from playing for off field stuff when the courts clear them (or even before the courts have had a chance to rule) and it drives me insane. It's just not a league's place to be making these decisions IMO, sorry.

    Bernardo's behavior is his problem ideally and at worst it is Man City's since they pay him and probably have a conduct clause in his contract. If Man City is happy, Bernardo is happy, and Mendy is happy then I'm opposed to any league action regardless of how racist whatever Bilva had said happened to be.

    But when he tweeted that, it was instantly met with hundred and hundreds of comments highlighting that it was very racist. Kick it out even came out and condemned it. You can’t expect the FA not to take action, considering.

    That's the thing though. I don't care what volume of people are offended or even if they're right or wrong.

    The "victim" of the "crime" doesn't feel victimized, no laws were broken, and no voluntary contracts were seemingly violated. Society and twitter and Kick It Out have no standing to bring any kind of case. Therefore no action should be taken.

    It is admittedly a very legalistic take but that is my viewpoint. I believe the law and legally binding contracts should be the only thing that should constrict the individual's right to free speech. Given those weren't violated, I don't believe in punishment. I am a (near) free speech absolutist.
  • Tornado31619
    17832 posts World Class
    edited November 14
    I know that I’m not racist and I stand by my opinions, but thank you for the support nonetheless. Doofus and Low Ki’s opinions are also perfectly valid; I just figured that since clearly neither party was going to budge, we should just drop the topic because it is quite personal, particularly if you’re talking to somebody affected by it. I get that.

    I’m aware that caricatures such as Mr. Popo do have racist connotations going back three hundred years, so I don’t blame Myles or another black person for wearing a shirt with a design that clearly resembles someone like him.

    “Clearly” is the key word, though. Look at the guy:
    maxresdefault.jpg
    He smiles in all of his matches. A huge, gleeful smile. WWE shirts are notoriously generic, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that some idiot decided to base Myles’s shirt design on his smile. Now I know that the shirt’s release wasn’t without a lack of communication, because Trips said that Myles approved it whilst Myles claimed that Trips approved it. The problem is that when Myles kicked up a fuss about the shirt three weeks ago, it had already been out for a month, so some people have felt more inclined to side with Trips.
    If the shirt was intended to be racist, then it would’ve been sorted out way earlier and somebody would have lost their job, and rightfully so. Nobody is stupid enough to put themselves in that position.
    And for what it’s worth, most WWE shirts have a black background, especially the ones from NXT, Myles’s (former) brand. Look them up.

    As for Bernardo, I agree with Ahmed that Kick It Out and the FA should have stayed out of this. Mendy not only approved of the Tweet, but clearly got a kick out of it. If someone in the club is worried, then Pep can bring it up with Bernardo. Interfering with other people’s lives like this is just going to turn this world into 1984, especially when you consider that stuff like this doesn’t just happen with racism.
  • Ahmer50x
    19901 posts World Class
    As for Bernardo, I agree with Ahmer that Kick It Out and the FA should have stayed out of this. Mendy not only approved of the Tweet, but clearly got a kick out of it. If someone in the club is worried, then Pep can bring it up with Bernardo. Interfering with other people’s lives like this is just going to turn this world into 1984, especially when you consider that stuff like this doesn’t just happen with racism.

    Exactly. What if say the Saudi FA started enforcing blasphemy laws because that viewpoint is in the majority there? You'd probably get some tangential association and social media to be as up in arms there so surely the action would be justified too if thats all that it takes?

    I'd argue it was wrong of the FA to get involved now and it'd be wrong then too. That's a consistent underlying logical framework. With the approach some others have espoused on here, you'd either end up contradicting yourself or endorsing blasphemy laws, neither of which I'm keen on.
  • wth22
    10509 posts Has That Special Something
    I don't often agree with SDoofus but he is spot on here, if Bernardo and Mendy think that's funny go ahead, but keep it to themselves.
  • Low Ki
    11855 posts Has That Special Something
    Taking it publicly is the big thing. They're doing it on social media and potentially influencing thousands of children into thinking its acceptable

    They're adults. It was irresponsible and the punishment was justified.

    Can we not be making excuses for racism? We're not Dynamo Kiev fans and should be better than that.
  • arsenalap
    6062 posts Big Money Move
    Low Ki wrote: »
    Taking it publicly is the big thing. They're doing it on social media and potentially influencing thousands of children into thinking its acceptable

    They're adults. It was irresponsible and the punishment was justified.

    Can we not be making excuses for racism? We're not Dynamo Kiev fans and should be better than that.

    It's a forum to discuss things. Nobody is saying anything out of line.
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