IF players experiment. Do they really help? Or hurt?

1
NVS_Whiskey
377 posts Sunday League Hero
I've been doing some experimenting lately. I recently built two teams of the exact same players.

One team is all IF players and the other is NIF.
They look like this.

433 (5)
GK: SIF Ruffier
RB: IF Aureir
CB: IF Nkoulou
CB: IF Thiago Silva
LB: SIF Kurzawa
CM: IF Verratti
CM: IF Matuidi
CM: IF Valbuena
LW: IF El Shaarawy
RW: SIF Di Maria
ST: MOTM Ibrahimovic

The other team is exactly the same except NIF. (All games played in singles matches.)
I played 20 games with both teams.
My record with the IF team: 6-4-10
Record with the NIF version: 14-2-4

In every game with the IF team they felt slow to respond, made bad touches nearly every time, made inaccurate passes and missed several clear chances. (All around felt like a very clunky, slow team.)

In every game with the NIF team they felt crisp, fast to react, and all-around fluid.

I'm still playing around with this but in almost ever game I play with the NIF team, they perform significantly better than the IF versions. I've been alternating these teams for the last week to see if anything changes but so far, the IF team remains clunky, slow and an struggle to win games.

Anyone else noticed this? Is there a reason they feel so terrible that I'm missing?

Comments

  • leon1309
    4210 posts National Call-Up
    Jup did the same thing on fifa 14 i think, and i played about 40-50 games altogether to get as acurate response as posible...and while i do accept the is also a big connection (lag) factor involved aswell, i had a lot worse experiance using full IF teams as i had using up to 3 IFs (or just plain NIF) teams.

    Ofcuorse i got trashed on this forum (all in your head and souch), but to this day i cant loose the feeling something was off with full IF teams in fifa 14.

    I can not say the same for 15 and 16, as I ussually try to avoid it (using more then 3 IFs in one team) now...
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    leon1309 wrote: »
    Jup did the same thing on fifa 14 i think, and i played about 40-50 games altogether to get as acurate response as posible...and while i do accept the is also a big connection (lag) factor involved aswell, i had a lot worse experiance using full IF teams as i had using up to 3 IFs (or just plain NIF) teams.

    Ofcuorse i got trashed on this forum (all in your head and souch), but to this day i cant loose the feeling something was off with full IF teams in fifa 14.

    I can not say the same for 15 and 16, as I ussually try to avoid it (using more then 3 IFs in one team) now...

    I'm sure I'll get all kinds of hate but I swear there's something to it. the two teams are night and day. I know that some games are effected by connection and what not, but the trend is still continuing after probably 100+ games. It's not just slightly different. It's a MAJOR feel difference between the two teams.
  • xArabOfficerx
    264 posts Sunday League Hero
    Interesting, I've never used a full IF team though, but I can say some IF have felt lacking compared to their NIF, some the opposite.
  • MrShenanigans
    619 posts Sunday League Hero
    Maybe ppl when see a team full of IFs play more seriously.
  • Gromit
    4417 posts National Call-Up
    Player sees a full in form team, he tries harder.

    I know this doesn't explain your "slow to respond, bad touches" etc but kinda think whatever you say you went into the experiment thinking the end result would be NIF are better.

    I've made full teams of IF this year, can't say they were better or worse.

    What I can say is I have about 1 millions coins and made a team worth I guess about 900k and I had a terrible terrible run. And the past 2 days I've been playing with 2 teams that probably cost no more than 20k each and they've been wining about 80% of their games which is far higher percentage than I've had in recent weeks using teams worth 200k - 900k.

    Maybe its a mental thing.
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    Maybe ppl when see a team full of IFs play more seriously.

    Judging by the mail I get after losing I'd say that plays a factor.

    "Must be nice to be terrible with all good players."

    "You spent all that and your garbage. GG!"

    Playing with the IF team has become extremely frustrating.
  • Rinoa
    997 posts Professional
    There was a great post a few years back that explains that NIF cards have a hidden chemistry value whereas informs don't receive this hidden stat. Its why a team of 11 IF's will never play as well as a team of 11 NIFs. Wich I could dig it out. The guy also proved thet IFs werent affected chem wise by playing them out og position. Dont know if this was ever patched
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    Rinoa wrote: »
    There was a great post a few years back that explains that NIF cards have a hidden chemistry value whereas informs don't receive this hidden stat. Its why a team of 11 IF's will never play as well as a team of 11 NIFs. Wich I could dig it out. The guy also proved thet IFs werent affected chem wise by playing them out og position. Dont know if this was ever patched

    Makes sense.
  • murazor
    7860 posts League Winner
    i have 3 full inform teams and an almost full toty team and i still win 80% of my games :) anyway i still think that AI is inconsistent and decide a lot of games. its nice to win matches when all the BS happen against you. its more rewarding :)
  • leon1309
    4210 posts National Call-Up
    edited February 2016
    Thing is, high rated teams, considering ELO, would give you better opponents (this is why people use bronze benching), and factoring in lag and high press, it could feel the team is playing a lot worse.

    But, this (team playing a lot worse) is/was also the same when using low rated teams with a lot of IFs. I could only speculate something goes wrong with server stats or whatever when using a lot of IFs in ones team.
  • DtGodmage22
    7050 posts League Winner
    I always felt like the game dont load informs right and they just feel sluggish
  • Bilbao_Baggins
    3976 posts National Call-Up
    More than 3 is the rule or the team will be ❤️❤️❤️❤️
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    Gromit wrote: »

    I know this doesn't explain your "slow to respond, bad touches" etc but kinda think whatever you say you went into the experiment thinking the end result would be NIF are better.


    Maybe its a mental thing.

    Honestly I thought the IF team would wreck house...Unfortunately not.
  • Whitebeard
    3442 posts National Call-Up
    Rinoa wrote: »
    There was a great post a few years back that explains that NIF cards have a hidden chemistry value whereas informs don't receive this hidden stat. Its why a team of 11 IF's will never play as well as a team of 11 NIFs. Wich I could dig it out. The guy also proved thet IFs werent affected chem wise by playing them out og position. Dont know if this was ever patched

    I really wouldn't be surprised. It'd be cool if you could find the thread, I'm interested in reading it, tho considering it was made few years ago, I doubt that's possible :neutral:
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    Considering what these IFs cost you would think you could get your money out of them.
    I figured "Hey, If I'm willing to shell out 2 mil on a team they should play like a 2 mil team." In reality, though, they play much worse than a 20k team...
  • heavymcd
    10068 posts Has That Special Something
    edited February 2016
    Maybe ppl when see a team full of IFs play more seriously.

    Judging by the mail I get after losing I'd say that plays a factor.

    "Must be nice to be terrible with all good players."

    "You spent all that and your garbage. GG!"

    Playing with the IF team has become extremely frustrating.

    Ha, try adding a couple TOTY to the mix. Guys will celebrate every goal like they've never scored before, and send just the best messages...win or lose.


    As for the observations in the OP, I'll say a couple things. First, the numbers don't lie. You win more games with NIFs, that seems to be a fact.

    However, two major variables arguably drive outcome of every game more than anything else, and I'm not sure you've controlled for either.

    First, lag. Nuff said.

    Second, player reaction/inputs. This is gonna be nearly impossible to control for, but on the other hand this is how conspiracy theories propagate. If it's hard to disprove, people believe what they want. I'd speculate that not only do the other players react differently when up against an all-IF squad, but so do you. He's going to play harder. You may try to force chances you wouldn't with a cheaper squad. You may get frustrated when it doesn't work. He presses the advantage. And so on. And this can carry over between games.


    Also, I'd discard any observations about touch, movement, etc...those can be subjective, and unless you're in a controlled environment and very careful about how you record them, they're subject to all kinds of bias.


    Ideally if you wanted to test this theory step one would be eliminating player reaction/knowledge from the scenario. You'd need a blind experiment, and really you'd need both players to be blind. If neither you nor opponent knew whether you had an all-IF team, you could start to collect legit data as to whether it's the team itself causing the problem, or player reactions to it.

    Tough to accomplish, and nobody is gonna care enough (myself included). Easiest way would be friendly matches, and have a second person on either end taking care of team selection and all the pre-kickoff screens. Even then it could be spoiled when they show cards in-game (when do they do this? Pregame, subs...when else?).

    Anyway, get that set up, then do two things: one, record the match results. Two, ask the player alternating between teams whether they are using the IF team or not (based on touch, movement, etc).

    I would bet money that the match outcomes approach random chance, and that the players ability to identify when they've got the IF squad is little better.

    Edit: come to think of it, friendly seasons, with the same friend, would largely eliminate connection issues as a factor too.
  • heavymcd
    10068 posts Has That Special Something
    Considering what these IFs cost you would think you could get your money out of them.
    I figured "Hey, If I'm willing to shell out 2 mil on a team they should play like a 2 mil team." In reality, though, they play much worse than a 20k team...

    Nah, IFs are a ripoff even on paper.

    Anywhere from 10K to 100K more for a +1 bump? Sometimes as much as 200K to 1M for a +2?

    You get them for bragging rights, or because you're a fan, or for position changes because you think chemistry is significant (it's not). But if you think +1 Modric is gonna win you any significant number of games that NIF wasn't? You're fooling yourself. SIFs and TIFs start to matter. TOTS obviously. But IFs and most SIFs are just coin sinks.

    When was the last time you took an 83 rated team against an 84 and, based on that, thought "I'm screwed!" At least a team where the 84 wasn't being dragged north by Ronaldo or Messi or something. Because that's the normal IF bump.
  • RadioShaq
    15857 posts Moderator
    Rinoa wrote: »
    There was a great post a few years back that explains that NIF cards have a hidden chemistry value whereas informs don't receive this hidden stat. Its why a team of 11 IF's will never play as well as a team of 11 NIFs. Wich I could dig it out. The guy also proved thet IFs werent affected chem wise by playing them out og position. Dont know if this was ever patched

    Informs get the same chem that nifs. It was ktz777 thread that robb cleared up at the end.
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    heavymcd wrote: »
    Maybe ppl when see a team full of IFs play more seriously.

    Judging by the mail I get after losing I'd say that plays a factor.

    "Must be nice to be terrible with all good players."

    "You spent all that and your garbage. GG!"

    Playing with the IF team has become extremely frustrating.

    Ha, try adding a couple TOTY to the mix. Guys will celebrate every goal like they've never scored before, and send just the best messages...win or lose.


    As for the observations in the OP, I'll say a couple things. First, the numbers don't lie. You win more games with NIFs, that seems to be a fact.

    However, two major variables arguably drive outcome of every game more than anything else, and I'm not sure you've controlled for either.

    First, lag. Nuff said.

    Second, player reaction/inputs. This is gonna be nearly impossible to control for, but on the other hand this is how conspiracy theories propagate. If it's hard to disprove, people believe what they want. I'd speculate that not only do the other players react differently when up against an all-IF squad, but so do you. He's going to play harder. You may try to force chances you wouldn't with a cheaper squad. You may get frustrated when it doesn't work. He presses the advantage. And so on. And this can carry over between games.


    Also, I'd discard any observations about touch, movement, etc...those can be subjective, and unless you're in a controlled environment and very careful about how you record them, they're subject to all kinds of bias.


    Ideally if you wanted to test this theory step one would be eliminating player reaction/knowledge from the scenario. You'd need a blind experiment, and really you'd need both players to be blind. If neither you nor opponent knew whether you had an all-IF team, you could start to collect legit data as to whether it's the team itself causing the problem, or player reactions to it.

    Tough to accomplish, and nobody is gonna care enough (myself included). Easiest way would be friendly matches, and have a second person on either end taking care of team selection and all the pre-kickoff screens. Even then it could be spoiled when they show cards in-game (when do they do this? Pregame, subs...when else?).

    Anyway, get that set up, then do two things: one, record the match results. Two, ask the player alternating between teams whether they are using the IF team or not (based on touch, movement, etc).

    I would bet money that the match outcomes approach random chance, and that the players ability to identify when they've got the IF squad is little better.


    I honestly wish I could set this up. I'm really interested to know. I also wish EA would just shed even the slightest light on their game formulas so we would have some insight. Great reply though. Given all the information I have gathered I can't be sure that this is FACT but I do know that the IF team, TO ME, feels much, much worse than the NIF team. Which sucks because I really want the IF team to be good. But then again, who wouldn't want their investment to pay off?
  • heavymcd
    10068 posts Has That Special Something
    I'd argue that they do shed the slightest light, if only that: IG stats are viewable. IFs are higher. Absent reliable evidence to the contrary....and for me, it'd have to be a legitimate blind experiment like I lay out...I'll continue to assume that game outcomes (or rather in-game event outcomes) are influenced and/or entirely driven by those stats (along with traits/specialities). At which point IFs should perform better.


    Any explanation that has EA making IFs worse...cards that drive player spending and which their revenues depend on...is on par with fake moon landing nonsense. Without conclusive evidence that is.




    That said, I don't dispute the original observation. Clearly playing with an all-IF team is leading to losing more games. It's a question of why.
  • Clancy
    8135 posts League Winner
    Yeah, use more IFs get matched against harder opponents and thus lose more matches. also sometimes in order to find a high level opponent u end up playing someone far away and have "sluggish" game play.

    I use mostly IF and TOTY teams and I can tell when the game is trying to match me against a hard opponent. takes forever to find a match, other guy is in D1 when I'm in D3 etc.

    try to find a match with an all NIF squad and it takes moments, and the other guy is from somewhere nearby and easy to beat
  • RayG
    1383 posts Professional
    Dude, the only way to prove something would be to make this experiment "blind", like someone launches the game for you so that you don't know wether you're playing with the IF or NIF team. Otherwise, you can't say if it's in your head or not...

    Plus, you shouldn't be expecting too much from IF's, they're not that much of an improvement compared to NIF.
  • grogans_heroes
    1693 posts Play-Off Hero
    You really need to have a better "control" than just playing random online opponents in random online games. I realize it would kill most people, but offline is the best environment to test your theory, especially playing seasons. If you play all 10 games in the same division with the two different teams, you are more likely to see consistency in your opponent and any outside EA-affect.
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    You really need to have a better "control" than just playing random online opponents in random online games. I realize it would kill most people, but offline is the best environment to test your theory, especially playing seasons. If you play all 10 games in the same division with the two different teams, you are more likely to see consistency in your opponent and any outside EA-affect.

    I'm not really expecting them to play godlike compared to their NIF. I would, however, like them to at least play equally well, or slightly better than their counterparts. I'll try it again and redo everything in single player against world class opponents. What I may do is have my wife pick the teams at random and not substitute anyone on so that I wont see which team I'm using and try to deduce which one the IF team is.
  • Clancy
    8135 posts League Winner
    You really need to have a better "control" than just playing random online opponents in random online games. I realize it would kill most people, but offline is the best environment to test your theory, especially playing seasons. If you play all 10 games in the same division with the two different teams, you are more likely to see consistency in your opponent and any outside EA-affect.

    I'm not really expecting them to play godlike compared to their NIF. I would, however, like them to at least play equally well, or slightly better than their counterparts. I'll try it again and redo everything in single player against world class opponents. What I may do is have my wife pick the teams at random and not substitute anyone on so that I wont see which team I'm using and try to deduce which one the IF team is.

    this is another issue though. because the IF are actually different cards so their shooting timing/ sprint speed/ etc. is all different.

    you might just be doing better with the NIF squad because you've played more matches with the NIF versions and are used to those cards.
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    CIancy wrote: »
    You really need to have a better "control" than just playing random online opponents in random online games. I realize it would kill most people, but offline is the best environment to test your theory, especially playing seasons. If you play all 10 games in the same division with the two different teams, you are more likely to see consistency in your opponent and any outside EA-affect.

    I'm not really expecting them to play godlike compared to their NIF. I would, however, like them to at least play equally well, or slightly better than their counterparts. I'll try it again and redo everything in single player against world class opponents. What I may do is have my wife pick the teams at random and not substitute anyone on so that I wont see which team I'm using and try to deduce which one the IF team is.

    this is another issue though. because the IF are actually different cards so their shooting timing/ sprint speed/ etc. is all different.

    you might just be doing better with the NIF squad because you've played more matches with the NIF versions and are used to those cards.

    I guess you're right. Maybe its just in my head. I just can't believe the difference between the two. The NIFs are silky smooth and fun to use. Scoring is almost effortless.
    On the other hand, the IFs feel like they have bricks in their shoes and MOTM Ibra falls over every 5 seconds. (Not the case with his NIF.) It's just frustrating I guess and I'm sort of fishing for answers.
  • truegunn3r
    10096 posts Has That Special Something
    edited February 2016
    Maybe ppl when see a team full of IFs play more seriously.
    This. I used to always get high pressured but as soon as I added Messi into my team 8 out of 10 people park the bus and play counter. Some even changed in game formation to 5 atb.

    People take this game abit too seriously and play to win rather than play to enjoy so they don't care how sweaty and boring they have to get but will commit/exploit everything in order to win.

    Your IF team probably scares the daylight out of these people.
  • Remzy69
    2102 posts Fans' Favourite
    This is quite shocking to read. Many reasons are possibly, but if the NIF plays better, than just stick with that. Saves you coins ;)
  • NVS_Whiskey
    377 posts Sunday League Hero
    Remzy69 wrote: »
    This is quite shocking to read. Many reasons are possibly, but if the NIF plays better, than just stick with that. Saves you coins ;)

    I like Shiny stuff...
  • Milan14
    490 posts An Exciting Prospect
    I have a team that are all IF except 3 players. I play just fine with them. I believe that people just try a lot harder when they see an expensive team, I always do when I see a really good team. I think the key is never to under estimate your opponent no matter what team they have, whether it's an all toty team or an all silver team. Always play with the same mindset and intensity every game.
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