Chelsea Football Club

Comments

  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    edited April 2015
    You've wasted around £90million on dross like Luis, Salah, Willian, Ginkel and Cuadrado, so don't make out like they were essential transfers :D Mata are De Bruyne and laughably superior to all of them.

    You analysis of De Bruyne is pure conjecture, he played 132 minutes for you so speculating what he is and isn't capable of in a Chelsea set-up is disingenuous.
    An excellent left back, a player we are most likely going to make a profit on when we eventually sell, a player who ok isn't spectacular but does a decent job, a young player who maybe won't make the grade but was highly thought of and unlucky with a serious injury and a player who it is far too early to make a judgment on.

    The fact you are having to use them as examples of our 'dross' transfer business shows just how outstanding we have been in the transfer market in recent years :)
  • Samuel
    319 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited April 2015
    Samuel wrote: »
    I merely had to laugh at your perspective, if you're unable to speculate the capability of one player (De Bruyne); how can you then single out players for censure when they've played a similar, if not less, amount of time? Cuadrado barely has 170 minutes for the club, he simply needs time to adjust to the pace of the game and be more willing to accept the physicality of the league. At the moment, we have three main attacking options and one who has zero clue about the Premier League. That's it.
    You clearly don't understand the concept of this analysis. De Bruyne played 132 minutes for Chelsea and was deemed not good enough. He's since gone to prove that assessment laughably wrong, he's become arguably the best playmaker in European football. He's surpassed anything Cuadrado has done even at the peak of his form for Fiorentina, and in a significantly superior league.
    Samuel wrote: »
    Involving Willian; I don't think you understand the significance of having someone in your squad whose able to do the dirty work and Willian has that in an abundance. He's the little engine that could. He defines industry. He may be no master craftsman, but he constantly provides an outlet for switching play, linking both sides of the pitch as well as being the transition from defense to attack. Whether or not that fits the bill of a £32 million player is arguable, although he's crucial to our success.
    Boring. This is the typical worn out excuse for any player that is simply ****. You've got no way to defend Willian, you've got no way to prove he brings anything tangible to the team so it the old "You don't understand him", "he's important to us".70955.gif
    What was it before with Hazard? He's the king of the "pre-assist"? Or was he the most fouled player in Europe? lol. Willian has been universally slated since he moved to Chelsea. Offers nothing to very little defensively or attackingly. But now that he's played at somewhat of a respectable level for the last couple of games all of sudden the revisionism comes out in full force and he's instantly become an "important" player that people just don't understand.

    Willian is far from some sort of creative phenomenon, however he possess the best combination of attributes for what is demanded in this current Chelsea side - De Bruyne's polar opposite, if you like. I think you're missing my point, De Bruyne wasn't as valuable to Chelsea as he now is to Wolfsburg because he's in a system that wholly suits him and utilizes him effectively. He was always this talented, but never in a situation to excel the way he has until he moved to Germany. When you're the main creative hub in a team it's very rare to have significant defensive duties. If you were to take him out of his current side and transfer him to say Barcelona, do you think he would still be, arguably, the best playmaker in Europe? He wouldn't fit the system, just like when he was at Chelsea. He is on his best when initiating the counter attack, he wouldn't get that sort of freedom at Barca. That said, and to reinstate what I said earlier, I doubt there'd be too many clubs who wouldn't want him having some sort of role however influential that might be. I hardly doubt the actual 158 minutes he played for Chelsea was sorely definitive when you're working with a manager, various coaches and whatnot in post-season for two years. For a visual sake, you can see how Willian's work rate, and defensive prowess, is comprehensively advocated:

    05f772d5abd500634b4f0abc3ac75374.png

    De Bruyne v. Hull for arguments sake, too. There's a clear contrast.

    283f612011829de7c53d8616c7b31292.png

    Willian's "sudden revisionism" comes from the fact he's now playing as close to a number 10 as possible in a Mourinho system that values work rate and defensive stability at the expense of creativity and flair, so to speak. Willian is far more capable of leading the press than Fabregas, he is generally steadier in possession than Oscar, he is faster than both those players which is useful both when attacking and defending), he is better on the ball than both of them, and he is also most capable of roaming behind Costa. For these reasons, Willian offers a great amount of tactical flexibility when deployed behind the striker; if we are to control the game he fits the role like a glove on a hand, if we set up to counter his pace is extremely useful, and if we decide to sit back his defensive commitment and work-rate are second to none. Speaking of an AM more generally, it is important to have sufficient enough pace to compensate for the relatively slow pivot of Fabregas and Matic. It is certainly a characteristic of Cuadrado's game, too.

    Zidane was never that productive even when he was the best player in the world and I think there's a clear parallel in play style between the two, obviously Hazard has some way to go before reaching Zizou's level. They both possess the ability to destroy the opposition's offensive shape, before leaving it to other players to finish things off. There are also striking similarities in their incredible ability to retain possession in the final third; Hazard is largely direct and yet very rarely gives away the ball necessarily, that's a rare and unappreciated combination. Take a look at this extract from thetacticsroom:

    "To suggest that Eden Hazard has gone under the radar behind the new attacking additions would be, to put it simply, quite idiotic if you’ve paid any sort of attention to Chelsea’s matches. Without watching them, though, many would assume that a direct contribution to a total of 3 goals in 9 league games is a representation of a poor beginning to the season for the man Mourinho described as having the ability to become “one of the greats of his generation”. In reality however, it’s not anywhere close to a fair depiction of just how good he’s been – and to misjudge that would be to ignore what type of player he is growing into."

    For reference, Zidane's goals and assists during his time at Juventus, when he was arguably at his peak:

    1996-1997 Juventus GP 29 G 5 A 2
    1997-1998 Juventus GP 32 G 7 A 5
    1998-1999 Juventus GP 25 G 2 A 2
    1999-2000 Juventus GP 32 G 4 A 3
    2000-2001 Juventus GP 33 G 6 A 14

    The thing about players like Zidane, even Hazard to an extent, the amount they do for the team is not something you can get in a clear statistic. It's not about being the "king of the pre-assist", it's more the matter that they dictate everything. While I don't agree with using statistics normally to disregard someone's argument, I think the data here is a little too interchangeable to ignore. I feel like anybody who calls Hazard overrated just doesn't understand football to a degree more complex than just goals and assists. Look at this against Swansea:

    DiligentHeftyCod.gif

    Hazard receives the ball and takes two steps before defenders swarm him and forget that Fabregas is even there, seemingly oblivious to him. He makes everything look so easy. That's the kind of asset and confidence he brings to Chelsea. The goals and assists will come but his style of play is invaluable, which unfortunately not everyone has the understanding to appreciate.

    I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to put this together, some people look at his goals and assists and don't rate him as highly as he deserves. Hazard has carried Chelsea to the title and is quite easily, for me, the best player in the Premier League.
  • Samuel
    319 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited April 2015
    Double post.
  • Evra
    2236 posts
    edited April 2015
    Your analysis of De Bruyne is lazy. You speak as though he is a luxurious attacking midfielder who can only perform in such scenarios where his only function is to stay forward and score or create goals. He was often deployed on the right for Wolfsburg earlier within the season, with Hunt playing through the centre. It is also where he almost exclusively played for Bremen on his successful loan spell. He is actually an extremely versatile player. In fact, he often plays as a right winger for the national side, where he is by far the greatest performer in almost every game. Wilmots recently declared De Bruyne would play there to allow the golden boy Hazard more space in the hopes he'd show up more.

    Your Hazard monologue is precious. You disregard any critique of his lack of non-penalty goals and assists and address it through feigned justification about 'not understanding football' and creating outlandish comparisons. I fail what that GIF is meant to show, also. Is this what we are all missing out on? Hazard's amazing ability to perfect a one-two - an alien concept in the modern game?
  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    Found this analysis of De Bruyne from Ribery very interesting.

    'He is not a player who takes the ball and dribbles forward and likes to have the opponents in front of him,' Ribery told German publication Sport Bild.

    'De Bruyne is great, when he fits the counterattack. At Bayern, however, you usually only have three or four metres in front of you, not a lot of room. But he is a good player and he is still young, so he can still learn.'

    If Riberys analysis is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) then I'm not sure he would be the answer for us anyway.
  • Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    Evra wrote: »
    Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
    A fundamentally different style maybe but we very rarely get the opportunity to counter attack and very rarely get given any space in attack also. If he struggles without these things as Ribery is suggesting then I'm not sure he is the prodigal son he is made out to be.
  • Tamerlane
    5284 posts Big Money Move
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Found this analysis of De Bruyne from Ribery very interesting.

    'He is not a player who takes the ball and dribbles forward and likes to have the opponents in front of him,' Ribery told German publication Sport Bild.

    'De Bruyne is great, when he fits the counterattack. At Bayern, however, you usually only have three or four metres in front of you, not a lot of room. But he is a good player and he is still young, so he can still learn.'

    If Riberys analysis is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) then I'm not sure he would be the answer for us anyway.
    Ribery is a man who plays for a rival team and has had sexual intercourse out of wedlock, I really don't think we should take his opinion very seriously.
  • Jenko
    13845 posts Has That Special Something
    'Defenders swarm him', you mean the CB does his job of closing down but the right-back foolishly steps up when he has no need? 97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif Is there a Posters' Hall of Fame on here yet?
  • Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
    A fundamentally different style maybe but we very rarely get the opportunity to counter attack and very rarely get given any space in attack also. If he struggles without these things as Ribery is suggesting then I'm not sure he is the prodigal son he is made out to be.
    Are you seriously suggesting the only reason De Bruyne has the most assists in Europe and has 5 goals and 5 assists in the Europa league is because he is always gifted space, and Wolfsburg play exclusively on the counter? Don't be so obtuse.
  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    edited April 2015
    Evra wrote: »
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
    A fundamentally different style maybe but we very rarely get the opportunity to counter attack and very rarely get given any space in attack also. If he struggles without these things as Ribery is suggesting then I'm not sure he is the prodigal son he is made out to be.
    Are you seriously suggesting the only reason De Bruyne has the most assists in Europe and has 5 goals and 5 assists in the Europa league is because he is always gifted space, and Wolfsburg play exclusively on the counter? Don't be so obtuse.
    I'm not suggesting anything, I am fully willing to admit I have never watched a Bundesliga match in my life (nor intend to) so have not seen enough of the prodigal son to form an opinion. Was just an interesting quote from a fellow professional who has obviously seen him play enough to form an opinion.

    Ribery also went on to speak glowingly about Eden Hazard so on that basis I feel I can trust his footballing judgment :)
  • Jenko
    13845 posts Has That Special Something
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
    A fundamentally different style maybe but we very rarely get the opportunity to counter attack and very rarely get given any space in attack also. If he struggles without these things as Ribery is suggesting then I'm not sure he is the prodigal son he is made out to be.
    Are you seriously suggesting the only reason De Bruyne has the most assists in Europe and has 5 goals and 5 assists in the Europa league is because he is always gifted space, and Wolfsburg play exclusively on the counter? Don't be so obtuse.
    I'm not suggesting anything, I am fully willing to admit I have never watched a Bundesliga match in my life (nor intend to) so have not seen enough of the prodigal son to form an opinion. Was just an interesting quote from a fellow professional who has obviously seen him play enough to form an opinion.

    Ribery also went on to speak glowingly about Eden Hazard so on that basis I feel I can trust his footballing judgment :)

    You shouldn't form an opinion on the views of one man. Here's the views of a man you regard as god-like:

    'He is a great player. Mourinho decided to let him go and not play him.

    'It was not my decision, even though I know very well that he could play at Chelsea because he has tremendous qualities.

    - Eden Hazard on Kevin De Bruyne
  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    Jenko wrote: »
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Dribbly wrote: »
    Evra wrote: »
    Why would De Bruyne heed advice from a player who he currently trumps in almost every aspect of his game? :grey_question:

    His point is correct regarding Bayern at the least, a team who play a fundamentally different style to Chelsea. He'd easily destroy the easier league at Chelsea.
    A fundamentally different style maybe but we very rarely get the opportunity to counter attack and very rarely get given any space in attack also. If he struggles without these things as Ribery is suggesting then I'm not sure he is the prodigal son he is made out to be.
    Are you seriously suggesting the only reason De Bruyne has the most assists in Europe and has 5 goals and 5 assists in the Europa league is because he is always gifted space, and Wolfsburg play exclusively on the counter? Don't be so obtuse.
    I'm not suggesting anything, I am fully willing to admit I have never watched a Bundesliga match in my life (nor intend to) so have not seen enough of the prodigal son to form an opinion. Was just an interesting quote from a fellow professional who has obviously seen him play enough to form an opinion.

    Ribery also went on to speak glowingly about Eden Hazard so on that basis I feel I can trust his footballing judgment :)

    You shouldn't form an opinion on the views of one man. Here's the views of a man you regard as god-like:

    'He is a great player. Mourinho decided to let him go and not play him.

    'It was not my decision, even though I know very well that he could play at Chelsea because he has tremendous qualities.

    - Eden Hazard on Kevin De Bruyne
    Again not suggesting Riberys opinion on De Bruyne is the same as my own, just thought it was an interesting point of view.
  • Samuel
    319 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited April 2015
    I find it highly appropriate how you've come to the decision to use Wilmots as an example to proclaim De Bruyne's importance for his national team, yet are oblivious that he too has made the so-claimed "outlandish comparison" between Hazard and Zidane: "He is a big talent. When I see him, I see Zinedine Zidane." Funny, really.

    On the topic of Wilmots, he's seriously holding back this incredibly talented Belgium side.
  • Jenko
    13845 posts Has That Special Something
    Samuel wrote: »
    I find it highly appropriate how you've come to the decision to use Wilmots as an example to proclaim De Bruyne's importance for his national team, yet are oblivious that he too has made the so-claimed "outlandish comparison" between Hazard and Zidane: "He is a big talent. When I see him, I see Zinedine Zidane." Funny, really. On the topic of Wilmots, he's seriously holding back this incredibly Belgium side.

    When did Evra use Wilmots as an example to proclaim De Bruyne's importance for his national team?
  • Evra
    2236 posts
    edited April 2015
    How does that support anything, you imbecile? I said Wilmots has moved De Bruyne to the right because Hazard needs more space to actually show up for the national side. And he hasn't. It shows De Bruyne's flexibility and Wilmots incompetence. Why are you quoting a man to strengthen your argument who you then go on to say is holding the side back? There is no credence in his words.

    Wilmots must go, such is true. And the reasoning is because of his loyalty to his 'trusted' players. He persists with players so badly out of form like Defour, Kompany, Chadli etc... And ignores players like Tielemans, Alderwiereld, Nainggolan (who only recently was called up). And perhaps his loyalty to a consistently underperforming Hazard whilst pushing his best player out of position to accommodate said inferior player.
  • Andy
    7850 posts League Winner
    Tamerlane wrote: »
    Ribery is a man who plays for a rival team and has had sexual intercourse out of wedlock, I really don't think we should take his opinion very seriously.

    2cgki87.jpg 2cgki87.jpg 2cgki87.jpg 2cgki87.jpg 2cgki87.jpg
  • Samuel
    319 posts Sunday League Hero
    edited April 2015
    @Evra Honestly, how often do you watch Hazard play with Chelsea? This sounds like the opinion of somebody who doesn't watch him nearly enough to make a satire statement like "Hazard's amazing ability to perfect a one-two".

    @Dribbly I agree with his viewpoint. De Bruyne isn't a player like either Robben or Ribery, if Bayern Munich were to replace them with similar players they'd be desperate to sign Hazard. He's pretty similar to Ribery in that he's not somebody looking for constant plaudits, but rather set up a teammate. He simply does not take as many shots or try to dribble past the last defender. Besides the eye test, the statistics back this up as well. Per 90 minutes, he takes 2.11 shots on goal. If you compare that to other top wingers, the only other winger who takes about the same amount is, guess who, Ribery with 2.05 shots per 90. Neymar, Sanchez, Bale and Reus hover around 3 to 4 shots per 90. Robben takes 4.8 shots per 90 and Ronaldo takes 6.15 shots per 90.

    Hazard's biggest fault that prevents him from reaching his potential at this moment is that he's a bit too unselfish at times. He's similar to Ribery as more of a playmaking winger than one who likes to cut inside and take shots like a Robben or a Ronaldo.

    In spite of that, Eden is, in my opinion, the second best player (perhaps third) ever to line up for us. It's so much fun watching him play, almost every touch is brilliant and has you out of your seat. I really, really hope we can get him more help next season so he, and we, can truly benefit from his genius. It's well over 50 years since Jimmy Greaves left the club and it may be 50 more before we sign another player of Eden's calibre.

    We completely wasted Jimmy's talent because the rest of our squad at the time was poor. By no stretch of the most pessimistic fan's imagination could we say today's squad is poor, but extraordinary players deserve an extraordinary platform to display their talents. I hope that is built at Chelsea, and if it is, Hazard could become something marvelous.

    In regards to De Bruyne, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Perhaps it wasn't a mistake letting him go at the time, in that particular situation, for that kind of money. The mistake is on Mourinho for not seeing obvious talent right in front of him.

    Having a buffer between Hazard and De Bruyne, usually Fellaini, is actually beneficial for Belgium. While it allows both wingers to flourish, as @Evra touched on, Fellaini has been able to break down the opposition's defense time after time and open up the game, which is usually their biggest problem. I agree that Nainggolan should have been in the squad a while ago, with Radja transitions are much faster on the ball and his recuperation is the best in their squad - just look at Michy's goal. Tactically, Wilmots has no clue and I'd be worried that their golden generation would fail to deliver if he remains.

    Any argument that Hazard is passive for Belgium would be solved if he became more clinical.
    Post edited by Samuel on
  • PR0DIGY84
    283 posts Sunday League Hero
    I hate these forums oh and hi.
  • Why do the Chelsea threads/topics always end up like this. 1oc6KkN.gif
  • Jenko
    13845 posts Has That Special Something
    You seem to be responding to the wrong post by Evra.
  • PR0DIGY84
    283 posts Sunday League Hero
    wut
  • Dan13
    4642 posts National Call-Up
    Dribbly wrote: »
    You've wasted around £90million on dross like Luis, Salah, Willian, Ginkel and Cuadrado, so don't make out like they were essential transfers :D Mata are De Bruyne and laughably superior to all of them.

    You analysis of De Bruyne is pure conjecture, he played 132 minutes for you so speculating what he is and isn't capable of in a Chelsea set-up is disingenuous.
    An excellent left back, a player we are most likely going to make a profit on when we eventually sell, a player who ok isn't spectacular but does a decent job, a young player who maybe won't make the grade but was highly thought of and unlucky with a serious injury and a player who it is far too early to make a judgment on.

    The fact you are having to use them as examples of our 'dross' transfer business shows just how outstanding we have been in the transfer market in recent years :)
    This isn't UT, lad

  • bluefusion198
    228 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited April 2015
    Could Bale be coming next season?

    27470AA300000578-0-A_Brazilian_website_is_claiming_to_have_the_new_Chelsea_kit_for_-m-30_1428150635270.jpg

  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    Dan13 wrote: »
    Dribbly wrote: »
    You've wasted around £90million on dross like Luis, Salah, Willian, Ginkel and Cuadrado, so don't make out like they were essential transfers :D Mata are De Bruyne and laughably superior to all of them.

    You analysis of De Bruyne is pure conjecture, he played 132 minutes for you so speculating what he is and isn't capable of in a Chelsea set-up is disingenuous.
    An excellent left back, a player we are most likely going to make a profit on when we eventually sell, a player who ok isn't spectacular but does a decent job, a young player who maybe won't make the grade but was highly thought of and unlucky with a serious injury and a player who it is far too early to make a judgment on.

    The fact you are having to use them as examples of our 'dross' transfer business shows just how outstanding we have been in the transfer market in recent years :)
    This isn't UT, lad
    :/
    Just so you know making money is a big part of the real world too.

  • Dribbly
    9114 posts League Winner
    PR0DIGY84 wrote: »
    I hate these forums oh and hi.
    Hi pal.

    Oh and interesting post @Samuel, Eden is probably from a technical point of view the best player I have ever seen in a Chelsea shirt, nostalgia wants me to say Zola but I think realistically Eden is superior. I agree he is too unselfish at times, but at the same time he normally makes an excellent pass instead of shooting so I don't have a massive issue with it. Saturday there was a great example where Eden was in a situation he could have easily shot instead he pulled it back for Cuadrado who should have scored.
  • xXBarkleyXx
    818 posts An Exciting Prospect
    Could Bale be coming next season?

    27470AA300000578-0-A_Brazilian_website_is_claiming_to_have_the_new_Chelsea_kit_for_-m-30_1428150635270.jpg


    Nah i doubt moumou would want his ego clogging up the dressing room bale wants to be the main man he'll upset Eden hazard arguably Chelsea's best player
  • De Bruyne
    118 posts Has Potential To Be Special
    edited April 2015
    da70d16c73.jpg
  • Jonzema
    288 posts Sunday League Hero
    Mourinho knows best though.
  • Jenko
    13845 posts Has That Special Something
    Willian is the better option because De Bruyne can only do it within 30 yards of space to run into, I'm told.
Sign In or Register to comment.